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  #16  
Old Jan 9, '13, 6:08 pm
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

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Originally Posted by skigirl1689 View Post
I disagree that it is fair to say this, because a lot of Evangelical churches still hold to very conservative beliefs...traditional Lutherans for one example. Yes, more and more churches are becoming liberal, but isn't it likely due to being swayed by societal pressures and not because of what Luther five centuries ago? I mean, these liberal churches weren't this liberal 100 years ago, so the causation, if there is any, is very weak.
Yes, you could not be more correct. Liberalism has affected many people in all faith traditions. It does kind of make one sick, however, when we see what is occuring in the Anglican (Episcopal) tradition. Even within the Lutheran Church, however, I believe contraception is allowed which is a very modern symptom of liberalism. But you are correct, it was not always so.
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  #17  
Old Jan 9, '13, 6:14 pm
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triumphguy triumphguy is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

Protestantism did in fact encourage individualism and humanism.

It was attractive to monarchies around Europe, and led to a strengthening of their position.

As a result it strengthened the role of the nation state as opposed to Christendom.

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura encouraged an individualistic and conscience based approach to scripture.

The "Protestant Work Ethic" and capitalism go hand in hand.

The Reformation led to Descartes (1596-1650): "I think therefore I am"
  #18  
Old Jan 9, '13, 6:54 pm
Gaelic Bard Gaelic Bard is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

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Originally Posted by triumphguy View Post
Protestantism did in fact encourage individualism and humanism.

It was attractive to monarchies around Europe, and led to a strengthening of their position.

As a result it strengthened the role of the nation state as opposed to Christendom.
Which did it strengthen? The nation state or the individual? You can't have it both ways, after all. You're correct that the weakening of authoritarianism could have been influenced by Protestant thought. But it couldn't have also strengthened the monarchy at the same time. The only real major monarchy to embrace Protestantism was England. Some of the princes in the German provinces became Lutheran, but not all. The nations that did lean Protestant became democracies within a few hundred years.

Quote:
The doctrine of Sola Scriptura encouraged an individualistic and conscience based approachto scripture.

The Reformation led to Descartes
Descartes was by all accounts a devout Catholic up until his death. He is even credited with the conversion of a Protestant monarch. Descartes was influenced by Aristotelianism and Stoicism.'
  #19  
Old Jan 9, '13, 7:14 pm
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

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Originally Posted by Gaelic Bard View Post
Which did it strengthen? The nation state or the individual? You can't have it both ways, after all. You're correct that the weakening of authoritarianism could have been influenced by Protestant thought. But it couldn't have also strengthened the monarchy at the same time. The only real major monarchy to embrace Protestantism was England. Some of the princes in the German provinces became Lutheran, but not all. The nations that did lean Protestant became democracies within a few hundred years.



Descartes was by all accounts a devout Catholic up until his death. He is even credited with the conversion of a Protestant monarch. Descartes was influenced by Aristotelianism and Stoicism.'

I like it two ways, and so I will have it two ways: and also I am right

Protestantism strengthened the nation state - and it also strengthened individualism.

It strengthened the nation state because princes and kings realized they could use protestantism to break away from the hegemony of Rome.

Once you had a secular state then secularism followed.

It strengthened the idea of the individual, as I have said, through the doctrine of Sola Scriptura

Yes Descartes was a Catholic - but cannot Catholics be influenced by individualism?

Was it not Descartes who said "I think therefore I am?" (I always remember the Monty Python song to get this right ) This argument is the foundation of all modern western thinking .

Descartes' contemporary Blaise Paschal believed that Descartes had gotten rid of the need for God.

As to nation states that were protestant: off the top of my head. Many German states, Switzerland. Sweden (bigger then than now). Britain. Holland.

Seems like most of Northern Europe to me - which of course it was.
  #20  
Old Jan 15, '13, 4:51 pm
KEP1983 KEP1983 is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

I've read secular scholars connect the Protestant Reformation with the Enlightenment. Obviously the Enlightenment is what created the atheism and secularism of today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaelic Bard View Post
Which did it strengthen? The nation state or the individual? You can't have it both ways, after all.
Wrong. Individualism created secular Republics/Democracies. After abandoning the Church and monarchy, the "people" decided that having individuals voting on morality and truth would lead to a greater society. Now the people-- the masses of individual opinions-- elect leaders who will do their will.

Unfortunately there is no objective morality or standard of any sort within Democracy or Republics. So long as enough people agree with a sinful socially damaging belief, that belief will become law. No objective moral standard stands above the masses subjective opinions.

This is directly connected historically with the Protestant Reformation. When Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli all proclaimed "sola scriptura," they couldn't even agree with each other about what the Bible actually said. Soon thereafter came the anabaptists, Anglicans, etc. They couldn't even agree on whether or not the sacraments are just signs or if the Holy Spirit working through them to give us grace? Did God predestine people to Hell or do we have free will to make a choice? Did God create the world to demonstrate His justice by predestining people to Hell; or did He create the world out of Love and give free creatures a free will to choose Him? These aren't minor issues, they're huge. Yet everyone agreed that the Bible was the objective truth that society should be based upon, but ultimately their interpretation of the meaning of scripture was up to the individual and his or her denomination. And if you disagreed with your denomination you simply started your own.

Well, if everyone is pointing to an objective standard but arguing about what the objective standard actually means-- that is, they are appealing to an objective standard but their interpretations are subjective-- it only takes a few generations of people to simply remove the objective standard (the Bible) and keep the subjetive standard (personal interpretation). Thus society fell into relativism.

A society simply doesn't jump from "One Church whose authority to bind and loose is exercised through the Magisterium, protected through by the Holy Spirit"; to "secular relativism." There has to be a step inbetween. That step was Protestantism-- a belief where objective truth is said to exist but is ultimately left to individual interpretation.

Eventually society simply abandoned the objective standard (the Bible) and kept the individual interpretation.
  #21  
Old Jan 15, '13, 5:04 pm
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aragonjohn1 aragonjohn1 is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

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Originally Posted by benjammin View Post
What I mean by this is that because of Luther and other reformers challenging the church, he put the focus on God and the individual, not the individual as a part of the church community. Anyway, this led the way to individuals not only challenging the church but challenging all authority and even God itself, leading to the enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries where many thinkers (including a few of our founding fathers) were deists.
Because of these ideas, there was more emphasis on individual liberty and freedom, but not the right kind of freedom. More of the kind of freedom where "I can do whatever I want and no one can stop me). This lack of respect for God, as well as desire for libertinism led to where we are today. While protestantism in some respects has remained strong, I feel that because of it people feel free to challenge all authority and eventually it leads to where people have no God and all they care about is the kind of freedom that satisfies desires of the flesh, not the true freedom found in God.

So could it be true that Protestantism, while certainly not part of Liberalism, has led to liberalism and the decline of our society or am I way out there?
No.
Not completely in the slightest

God bless
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  #22  
Old Jan 16, '13, 4:16 pm
andrewstx andrewstx is online now
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

I think in the US, the opposite is true especially when it came to the Puritans,Calvinists who were pretty much the first Christians here and who's philosophy is still followed by many Americans.

The Puritans were very much enamored by laissez-faire capitalism, and their Calvinism. Calvinism taught that having more money was a sign of God's favor and indicated that they were amoung the elect.

Really I am not sure why conservatism is considerd more holy by some members. It is good for the "haves", but is not so good for the "have nots".
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  #23  
Old Jan 16, '13, 6:31 pm
tweetiebird tweetiebird is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

I had to do some soul searching about Luther.

I am a craddle catholic, but I went to public highschool.

So I grew up with the perception of Luther the emancipator.

Later in life I had to take a close look at Luther and exactly what he accomplished.

Now I see Luther through the eyes of a catholic.

Once again I had the misconception all of protestant denominations come from Luther.


But I now know to truly study Luther only consider the Lutheran denomination. Is the

Lutheran denomination liberal? I think it is conservative on the modern issues of the day.

The lutheran denomination is not liberal, I say that even though I am a staunch catholic.

But like the poster stated, some people may have taken his ideas and other movements formed.
  #24  
Old Jan 17, '13, 2:29 pm
JonNC JonNC is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiebird View Post
I had to do some soul searching about Luther.

I am a craddle catholic, but I went to public highschool.

So I grew up with the perception of Luther the emancipator.

Later in life I had to take a close look at Luther and exactly what he accomplished.

Now I see Luther through the eyes of a catholic.

Once again I had the misconception all of protestant denominations come from Luther.


But I now know to truly study Luther only consider the Lutheran denomination. Is the

Lutheran denomination liberal? I think it is conservative on the modern issues of the day.

The lutheran denomination is not liberal, I say that even though I am a staunch catholic.

But like the poster stated, some people may have taken his ideas and other movements formed.
Oh, it depends on the Lutheran, and on the synod. Some of my Lutheran siblings, sadly, have drifted into liberalism both in their politics and in their theology. Or, at least thei leadership has.

Jon
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"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
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  #25  
Old Jan 17, '13, 2:49 pm
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benjammin benjammin is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewstx View Post
I think in the US, the opposite is true especially when it came to the Puritans,Calvinists who were pretty much the first Christians here and who's philosophy is still followed by many Americans.

The Puritans were very much enamored by laissez-faire capitalism, and their Calvinism. Calvinism taught that having more money was a sign of God's favor and indicated that they were amoung the elect.

Really I am not sure why conservatism is considerd more holy by some members. It is good for the "haves", but is not so good for the "have nots".
I think it is because social conservatives tend to be economically conservative as well, so they proclaim its values. Sadly what we need to realize is that economic conservatism can be bad. Unregulated capitalism is just as unethical as communism. I think what the church wants is there to be a center where we have capitalism, but everyone can live comfortably but also have people not want as much and give more
  #26  
Old Jan 17, '13, 4:26 pm
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

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Originally Posted by benjammin View Post
I think it is because social conservatives tend to be economically conservative as well, so they proclaim its values. Sadly what we need to realize is that economic conservatism can be bad. Unregulated capitalism is just as unethical as communism. I think what the church wants is there to be a center where we have capitalism, but everyone can live comfortably but also have people not want as much and give more
It is the Christian responsiblity to care for the poor. Each and every one of us is responsible regardless of the economic model one follows. We cannot push that responsiblity on to the state and forget about it. I believe it was Mother Theresa who said we must "give until it hurts". Christ takes serving the poor very seriously: 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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  #27  
Old Jan 17, '13, 4:59 pm
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

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Originally Posted by SteveVH View Post
It is the Christian responsiblity to care for the poor. Each and every one of us is responsible regardless of the economic model one follows. We cannot push that responsiblity on to the state and forget about it. I believe it was Mother Theresa who said we must "give until it hurts". Christ takes serving the poor very seriously: 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Agreed. By people, I meant actual individuals. Not government.
  #28  
Old Jan 17, '13, 5:11 pm
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

I have posted the below a long time ago, but Oh,how true !

God Bless


Satans' Master Plan...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE DEVIL. THE DEVELOPMENT OF MODERN ERRORS...

For approximately seventeen centuries men acknowledged that authority comes only from God, and temporal rulers sought the approval and the blessing of their bishops who, by divine right, ruled in their dioceses as successors of the Apostles. Then came the Philosophists. As always, the Power of Darkness used pride to achieve his aims, the pride of human reason. As always he called the Light, Darkness and the Darkness, Light (Isaiah 5:20). That is why the Medieval times are now referred to as the "Dark Ages"; (in fact, the Dark Ages were pre-Medieval), and why Philosophism is referred to as "Enlightenment".



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As always, the Devil acted with subtlety: he did not bring in Communism immediately, he brought in Modern Democracy first, knowing that the one would lead to the other. The lures inherent in the first would more easily lead to the destruction of man by the second. The Devil acted with cunning. So shrewd is he that even Christians were deceived. To make a thorough job of it he instilled into modern minds the myth of historical inevitability. "We must march with the times" we are told, as if the times were not what we are making them!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A SUBTLE AND GRADUAL PROCESS...

The present state of the world is not due to chance, it is the outcome of the everlasting struggle between good and evil. The Devil knows that his fight against God has to be gradual if it is to have any chance of success. Therefore, he began his fight in the 16th century by dividing Christianity.
When the first battle had been won, the Devil moved from the religious field into the philosophical field, and conceived Rationalism, which put human reason before Revelation.
Christians being already divided, there was no single front to defend the primacy of Divine Revelation. The interpretation of Divine Revelation being divided against itself, it could not resist the claim of the so-called primacy of human reason. Human reason appeared more reliable, and so the new philosophy installed itself. It naturally followed that man began to think about an earthly paradise.
Hence Rationalism begot Human Messianism (i.e. Humanism). It was then logical that man should not want to be impeded by standards of moral conduct. He had to be free from all restraints, and his reason alone was going to tell him how to act and behave.
Thus came into being the doctrine of Liberalism. Almost immediately, this doctrine extended to every field of human activity, especially economics, politics and science. From being philosophical, it became practical a way of life, the philosophical origin of which, most people do not suspect nowadays.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AN UNHOLY TRINITY...

After this, Human Messianism combined with Liberalism to set up CAPITALISM, an economic system based on greed and usury, which paves the way for Communism. Rationalism and Liberalism combined to give birth to the principle of POPULAR SOVEREIGNTY, being free and reasonable, every human being was to make all decisions.
Rationalism, and Human Messianism, combined to give birth to SCIENTISM (or the cult of Technology, the worship of the work of man, i.e. TECHNOLATRY) whereby we expect salvation from better and higher production, an error which was observed by Pius XII in his 1952 Christmas message. We speak of "Progress" in terms of industrialisation, completely unaware of "the undeniable advantages of an economy based chiefly on agriculture". (Pius XII)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DIABOLICALLY LOGICAL...

Thus, the unholy trinity, that is, Rationalism, Human Messianism, and Liberalism, laid the ground-work for all the evils which are destroying modern society. Observe how gradual the process has been:
a) Difference in religious views (affecting the soul).
b) Alteration in philosophical thinking (affecting the intellect).
c) Organisation and purpose of the physical world (affecting the will).

Observe how logical the development:
a) REFORMATION (dividing Christianity to weaken Divine Revelation).
b) RATIONALISM (doubting that man can rely on Divine Revelation).
c) HUMAN MESSIANISM (asserting that man can rely on himself).
d) LIBERALISM (trusting man wholly).
e) CAPITALISM (Human Messianism plus Liberalism).
f) DEMOCRACY (Rationalism plus Liberalism).
g) TECHNOCRACY (and Technolatry) - (Nationalism plus Human Messianism).

These developments are too gradual and logical to leave any doubt that there is an Intelligence behind it. This Intelligence is that of the Power of Darkness.
A number of Saints have said that, in the Latter Days, evil will be done by men of good will. There is no doubt that many Catholics believe in good faith that we are living in an age of progress, and that Modern Democracy IS Progress. The superficial advantages which it presents hide from many its intrinsic nature, the errors on which it is based, and the evils which accompany it.

The deception of the Devil has worked.


http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Author Unknown...
  #29  
Old Jan 17, '13, 5:12 pm
Gaelic Bard Gaelic Bard is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveVH View Post
It is the Christian responsiblity to care for the poor. Each and every one of us is responsible regardless of the economic model one follows. We cannot push that responsiblity on to the state and forget about it. I believe it was Mother Theresa who said we must "give until it hurts". Christ takes serving the poor very seriously: 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
I think though, Steve, that capitalism lends itself better to what you described above. Private entities, when they're free to pursue philanthropic ventures without government interference, will handle these responsibilities. Catholic Services was there prior to social security. Yet look what hapoens when government gets involved? Ala Catholic agencies being forced by the government to adopt to homosexuals in MA...so they close down.
  #30  
Old Jan 17, '13, 5:14 pm
duneman duneman is offline
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Default Re: Would it be fair to say that Protestantism has led to modern day liberalism?

of course it has !!!!!!!
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