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  #1  
Old Jan 13, '13, 10:17 am
Bobdesmet2009 Bobdesmet2009 is offline
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Default The original bible.. Septuagint?

Was the Septuagint what Christ used quoted? Also, does the Catholic Church have the original version of the bible in their possession.. Since the Catholic Church is the original church, shouldn't we have the original bible?
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  #2  
Old Jan 13, '13, 11:10 am
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Wandile Wandile is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by Bobdesmet2009 View Post
Was the Septuagint what Christ used quoted? Also, does the Catholic Church have the original version of the bible in their possession.. Since the Catholic Church is the original church, shouldn't we have the original bible?
Christ did not use the septuagint as that is greek and Christ lived in Israel where the language was aramiac and liturgical language was hebrew.. However the evidence shows that he used a hebrew equivalent of the septuagint. This is proven true in the fact that his old testament quotes coincide with the septuagint rendering of verses. However the gospel writers used the septuagint and around 70% percent of the new testament quotes come the Septuagint.

Second the Catholic Church most probably don't have THE original bible. However it does have the oldest bible in the world today; Codex Vaticanus which dates back to around 325AD if I'm not mistaken.

I recommend you research this as I may have made one or two mistakes.
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  #3  
Old Jan 13, '13, 11:13 am
Publisher Publisher is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

It is doubtful Jeus used the Septuagint, since the Septuagint was translated not for the Palestinian Jews, but for the Greek speaking Jews of the Diaspora that had a limited comprehension of Hebrew and Aramaic.

Jesus spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic as he was Palestinian Jew and attended the Temple.

The writers of the gospels were Jews of the Diaspora, Paul taught Greek speaking Jews....so of course they would have used the Septuagint since the Hebrew/Aramaic would have been "unwieldy" for them since they were not fluent.

The Septuagint became the Bible the early church used...not because Jesus used it...but because it was the one the Greek speaking Diaspora and Greeks could read.
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  #4  
Old Jan 13, '13, 2:17 pm
Hasire Hasire is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

These are a good read:

http://onbehalfofall.org/2012/03/31/...he-septuagint/
http://onbehalfofall.org/2012/06/25/...-the-apostles/

"Of the Authority of the Septuagint Translation, Which, Saving the Honor of the Hebrew Original, is to Be Preferred to All Translations." St. Augustine
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Ci...III/Chapter_43
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  #5  
Old Jan 13, '13, 2:39 pm
Dolezal Dolezal is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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Jesus spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic as he was Palestinian Jew and attended the Temple.
What makes you think Jesus spoke Hebrew? He would have been as likely to speak Hebrew as you are to speak Latin. Hebrew was not a common spoken language for 500 years. Hebrew texts in the synagogues were explained in Aramaic, suggesting that most Galileans did not understand Hebrew. Jesus almost certainly spoke Aramaic and Greek (the two predominant languages in Palestine, Greek being the predominant language in Galilee). I doubt Jesus spoke a language almost no one around him could understand.
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Old Jan 13, '13, 2:44 pm
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Wandile Wandile is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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What makes you think Jesus spoke Hebrew? He would have been as likely to speak Hebrew as you are to speak Latin. Hebrew was not a common spoken language for 500 years. Hebrew texts in the synagogues were explained in Aramaic, suggesting that most Galileans did not understand Hebrew. Jesus almost certainly spoke Aramaic and Greek (the two predominant languages in Palestine, Greek being the predominant language in Galilee). I doubt Jesus spoke a language almost no one around him could understand.
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  #7  
Old Jan 13, '13, 4:01 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by Dolezal View Post
What makes you think Jesus spoke Hebrew? He would have been as likely to speak Hebrew as you are to speak Latin. Hebrew was not a common spoken language for 500 years. Hebrew texts in the synagogues were explained in Aramaic, suggesting that most Galileans did not understand Hebrew. Jesus almost certainly spoke Aramaic and Greek (the two predominant languages in Palestine, Greek being the predominant language in Galilee). I doubt Jesus spoke a language almost no one around him could understand.
Actually, Hebrew was still a spoken language. Aramaic steadily began to gain ground in Palestine at the beginning of the Hellenistic age (around 330 BC) because of its importance in Persian imperial administration and the commercial contacts which went with it. Hebrew was still maintaining itself despite this: it was still possible to write original literature in Late Biblical Hebrew, and it continued so down to the 1st century. Meanwhile the colloquial form of Hebrew, the basis of Middle Hebrew, was also taking hold in certain quarters. The Hebrew language's decline was actually averted (rather ironically) by the arrival of Greek, and the total swing in the political balance that accompanied it, which substantially reduced the value and attractiveness of Aramaic, especially from the viewpoint of social, cultural and commercial leadership.

By the time of Jesus, most people in Palestine did speak Aramaic as a daily language (it was strong in northern areas like the Galilee), although there were there were still communities in the Judaean countryside who spoke Hebrew. (There were also pockets of Hebrew elsewhere, and a considerable representation of Aramaic even in the south, so boundary lines are hard to draw.) Greek was probably strong in the Galilee and the north, and also in the coastal towns; but there is also adequate evidence for considerable knowledge of Greek in Judaea. Of course you have to remember that Aramaic and Hebrew were not really clearly distinguished from each other: when the New Testament speaks about "Hebrew" it only means "the native language of the Hebrews" (which by this time is both Aramaic and Hebrew; as opposed to "Greek"), not necessarily the Semitic language we call today 'Hebrew'.
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Old Jan 13, '13, 4:43 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by Bobdesmet2009 View Post
Also, does the Catholic Church have the original version of the bible in their possession.. Since the Catholic Church is the original church, shouldn't we have the original bible?
You have to remember that a 'Bible' in the modern sense (a collection of works deemed to be canonical bound together under one cover) was something that only came into existence long afterwards: somewhere around the 4th-5th century, just about the time when the canon of Scripture was being more concretely defined. But even then, 'full' Bibles were still very rare (after all, books were still copied by hand) up until I think around the invention of the press during the late Middle Ages. Originally, what you had was not one single book, but a library of books - and before that, scrolls.
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  #9  
Old Jan 13, '13, 5:05 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by Wandile View Post
Second the Catholic Church most probably don't have THE original bible. However it does have the oldest bible in the world today; Codex Vaticanus which dates back to around 325AD if I'm not mistaken.
The oldest Bibles (in the modern sense) are the four great uncials, all from the period between the 4th and the 5th century: Codex Vaticanus, contemporary, Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Alexandrinus and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus.

I should add that Codex Vaticanus was in the Vatican Library (1448) for as long as it has been known, appearing in the library's earliest catalog of 1475. That being said the codex was not always in Rome. The provenance and early history of the codex is uncertain (its place of origin is still debated, although Alexandria or somewhere else in Egypt is a popular candidate): no one knows where it was housed before it came to the Vatican Library. It could have been Constantinople.
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Old Jan 13, '13, 5:08 pm
Publisher Publisher is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by Dolezal View Post
What makes you think Jesus spoke Hebrew? He would have been as likely to speak Hebrew as you are to speak Latin. Hebrew was not a common spoken language for 500 years. Hebrew texts in the synagogues were explained in Aramaic, suggesting that most Galileans did not understand Hebrew. Jesus almost certainly spoke Aramaic and Greek (the two predominant languages in Palestine, Greek being the predominant language in Galilee). I doubt Jesus spoke a language almost no one around him could understand.
Since the scriptures read in synagouge and Temple were in Hebrew...especially the Law.....and since Jesus read the scriptures in synagougt and a Palestinian Jew, he would have been familiar with Hebrew enough to read it. Aramaic was spoken in Palestine...but Greek was the language of the Diaspora, which the Septuagint was translated in the frist place for....not for Aramaic speaking, Hebrew reading Palestinain Jews.
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  #11  
Old Jan 14, '13, 11:34 am
Jerry-Jet Jerry-Jet is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

Does anyone know what the earliest Aramaic text of any book of the New Testament is?

Does anyone know what the earliest Hebrew part of any book of the New Testament is?

Some say that Matthew might have first written his gospel in Aramaic. What are the chances that he would have been the first person to translate that book into Greek?

There are supposedly three villages in Syria that speak Aramaic similar to what Jesus spoke. How close is their language to what Jesus spoke? How important is it to catalogue the Aramaic language of those three villages lest it become extinct?
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  #12  
Old Jan 14, '13, 6:29 pm
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gus gus is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by Jerry-Jet View Post
Does anyone know what the earliest Aramaic text of any book of the New Testament is?

Does anyone know what the earliest Hebrew part of any book of the New Testament is?

Some say that Matthew might have first written his gospel in Aramaic. What are the chances that he would have been the first person to translate that book into Greek?

There are supposedly three villages in Syria that speak Aramaic similar to what Jesus spoke. How close is their language to what Jesus spoke? How important is it to catalogue the Aramaic language of those three villages lest it become extinct?
Iranaeous of Lyon in the late 2nd century claims Matthew was written in the language of the Jews
But if it was Hebrew or Aramatic there was no mentiont
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Old Jan 14, '13, 7:14 pm
Dave Noonan Dave Noonan is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by Publisher View Post
Since the scriptures read in synagouge and Temple were in Hebrew...especially the Law.....and since Jesus read the scriptures in synagougt and a Palestinian Jew, he would have been familiar with Hebrew enough to read it. Aramaic was spoken in Palestine...but Greek was the language of the Diaspora, which the Septuagint was translated in the frist place for....not for Aramaic speaking, Hebrew reading Palestinain Jews.
Greek was only a spoken language for those diaspora Jews living in Greek-speaking areas. The sizable (and perhaps majority) Jewish population living to the east of Palestine would have been Aramaic speakers in various dialects--thus the need for Aramaic translations of the Hebrew scriptures.
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  #14  
Old Jan 15, '13, 1:45 pm
shreek shreek is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry-Jet View Post
Does anyone know what the earliest Aramaic text of any book of the New Testament is?

Does anyone know what the earliest Hebrew part of any book of the New Testament is?

Some say that Matthew might have first written his gospel in Aramaic. What are the chances that he would have been the first person to translate that book into Greek?

There are supposedly three villages in Syria that speak Aramaic similar to what Jesus spoke. How close is their language to what Jesus spoke? How important is it to catalogue the Aramaic language of those three villages lest it become extinct?
one must not confuse Aramaic with Syriac.
Jesus spoke what is termed West Palestinian Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic.

There is only one Village in Syria that wholly speaks Syriac, not Aramaic, and that is Malloula.
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Old Jan 15, '13, 5:14 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: The original bible.. Septuagint?

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one must not confuse Aramaic with Syriac.
Jesus spoke what is termed West Palestinian Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic.

There is only one Village in Syria that wholly speaks Syriac, not Aramaic, and that is Malloula.
I think you got it upside down. The language spoken in Malloula (and two other nearby villages) is Western Neo-Aramaic. Western Neo-Aramaic's claim to fame is that it is the only surviving Western Aramaic language today; all the other forms of Aramaic that are still spoken today (Syriac included) belong to the Eastern branch.

Western Neo-Aramaic is related to the (the now-extinct) Aramaic that would have been spoken in Palestine at the time of Jesus in that they both belong to the same family. Simply put, "Western" denotes the several Aramaic dialects that developed and was once widely spoken throughout the ancient Levant, while "Eastern" denotes those which were spoken from in and around Mesopotamia. Syriac, Turoyo, Senaya, Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, Chaldean Neo-Aramaic, and Mandaic are all Eastern languages.

Last edited by patrick457; Jan 15, '13 at 5:25 pm.
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