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  #76  
Old Jan 3, '13, 1:51 am
Petergee Petergee is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farien View Post
It must be great to have "omniscience" and know if some scenario "cannot possibly arise". Does your omniscience extend to the next set of lottery numbers?
One certainly sdoes not need to have any special power to see logically that a situation cannot arise. Others here have already pointed out several reasons why this situation could not arise in real life.
Quote:

If you wish to fall back on this defense, then you must prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 1) there is a God, 2) there was a "revelation". Otherwise you only repeat an opinion. Use only rational arguments, please, and no hearsay "evidence".


Prove that there is an eternal life and it is contingent upon our behavior here. Don't just repeat your opinion as if it were an argument. And tell us how do you define "murder".


And what else would morality be then the collection of social rules and taboos?
All these questions are off-topic. You will find them very fully debated and answered elsewhere on this site. This is a Catholic site and unless specifically stated otherwise, a question about morality implies that answers should be based upon the truth as knowen to the Catholic Church.
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  #77  
Old Jan 3, '13, 2:47 am
Farien Farien is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
One certainly sdoes not need to have any special power to see logically that a situation cannot arise.
There is nothing logically contradictory about the scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
All these questions are off-topic. You will find them very fully debated and answered elsewhere on this site. This is a Catholic site and unless specifically stated otherwise, a question about morality implies that answers should be based upon the truth as knowen to the Catholic Church.
Authority based "arguments" are only accepted by those who accept the authority. Undefined words like "murder" do not lend credence to what you say.
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  #78  
Old Jan 4, '13, 1:47 pm
CallMeDad CallMeDad is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

I read a fascinating book some years ago about Captain Bligh, who of course was kicked off the Bounty and sent to sea in a life boat with eighteen members of the crew who were still loyal to him. Captain Bligh needed to get the men in the lifeboat 3600 miles across the Pacific without the aid of any of the modern navigational tools. He furthermore had to ration what little food and water they had. As I recall, men were literally being given daily spoonfuls of water in order to sustain all of the crew. I guess the story was fascinating to read because I was a manager at the time, and it was interesting to reflect upon the way that Captain Bligh preserved those men even though they undoubtedly hated him during the voyage. it was an interesting case study in leadership, and how sometimes a leader has to do exactly what the people don't want, rather than what they do want.

Here is a link with a summary: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/capta...-survival.html

I've no idea if this helps the discussion, but for what it is worth, I do believe that it is somewhat artificial to construct a problem where it is presumed that the sustenance is only adequate for nine men, and not ten.
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  #79  
Old Jan 5, '13, 2:31 pm
Truthstalker Truthstalker is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

Thoughts:

What if the Captain was wrong? What if only eight could make it, or if all ten could, and he simply miscounted the water? Someone might be throwing their life away on speculation.

What is the fundamental difference between what Kolbe did and what a suicide does? Is what we are talking about here really suicide?

I feel as if I set this problem up poorly. I apologize. Can people help fix it? How could it have been better phrased to set up the dilemma?
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  #80  
Old Jan 5, '13, 3:00 pm
davidv davidv is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthstalker View Post
Thoughts:

What if the Captain was wrong? What if only eight could make it, or if all ten could, and he simply miscounted the water? Someone might be throwing their life away on speculation.
Does not alter the fundamental principle, no evil can be performed to bring about good.
Quote:
What is the fundamental difference between what Kolbe did and what a suicide does? Is what we are talking about here really suicide?
I believe that one fundament difference is: who is the aggressor. In Kolbe's case it was his captors. In a suicide's case it is the self.
Quote:
I feel as if I set this problem up poorly. I apologize. Can people help fix it? How could it have been better phrased to set up the dilemma?
Most of the time these dilemmas are proposed to debunk moral theology. As such, they are always set up poorly. As long as the questioner restricts the answers there can be no fix to the setup.
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  #81  
Old Jan 5, '13, 10:55 pm
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runningdude runningdude is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv View Post
Does not alter the fundamental principle, no evil can be performed to bring about good.

I believe that one fundament difference is: who is the aggressor. In Kolbe's case it was his captors. In a suicide's case it is the self.
I concur with this. A deliberate death always involves a sin. In a suicide, the sin on the one committing it (to extent culpable). In a murder situation, it is the on the aggressor. In an execution situation, it is on the guilty party. No sin can be morally permitted, however once committed, it "frees the hand", so to speak, of the aggressed to address the situation proportionately. Hence, why self-defense is permitted.
Quote:
Most of the time these dilemmas are proposed to debunk moral theology. As such, they are always set up poorly. As long as the questioner restricts the answers there can be no fix to the setup.
Hence, my initial response to the OP's post!
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  #82  
Old Jan 6, '13, 3:33 am
DrTaffy DrTaffy is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

For those saying that the relevant factor is whether or not the risk of death comes from another person (as in the grenade) or from natural risks, I don't agree.

Why would throwing yourself in front of a bullet be laudable self-sacrifice, but throwing yourself in the way of a naturally falling rock be sinful suicide, if in both cases the intent was to save a child? (And assuming no alternative means of saving the child were available, of course)



For those saying the men in the boat should simply pray or hope for a miracle, why then is this not the advice of the Church in the case of the ectopic pregnancy? The doctors could just wait and pray for a miracle to resolve the matter (there are, I gather, a tiny number of cases of ectopic pregnancies that came to term without death on either side) but the advice is (I gather) to remove the fallopian tube + embryo.

To put it another way, why would the more perfect choice not to be to get out of the boat and start optimistically doggy-paddling towards land, thereby definitely (by the rules of the hypothetical question) saving the nine others but leaving open the option of a miraculous rescue of yourself? Again, dolphins have been know to rescue swimmers - although I think it is Terry Pratchett who points out that we maybe just don't hear about the cases where the dolphin prefers to bite the human in half and have long pig for lunch!
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  #83  
Old Jan 6, '13, 11:45 am
Truthstalker Truthstalker is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

The most interesting part of this for me is how people are working the problem: the process, more than the solution.
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  #84  
Old Jan 6, '13, 7:29 pm
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runningdude runningdude is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTaffy View Post
For those saying that the relevant factor is whether or not the risk of death comes from another person (as in the grenade) or from natural risks, I don't agree.

Why would throwing yourself in front of a bullet be laudable self-sacrifice, but throwing yourself in the way of a naturally falling rock be sinful suicide, if in both cases the intent was to save a child? (And assuming no alternative means of saving the child were available, of course)...
I don't think anybody was saying that. Getting crushed by rocks would be a natural evil. It would be morally acceptable to intervene to prevent someone from being crushed, even at the risk of one's life.
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  #85  
Old Jan 25, '13, 9:10 pm
Bella92 Bella92 is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
What St Maximilian Kolbe did was very different. He was in a concentration camp and the Nazis had decided that 10 prisoners would be murdered by starvation (they provided some water).
Hang about mate. You said suicide was deliberately entering a situation which you know will certainly result in your death and you said the nazis had decided to murder 10 prisoners. When that priest took one of their places, he was deliberately entering a situation which he knew will certainly result in his death, so according to you, he committed suicide, which is a mortal sin.
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  #86  
Old Jan 26, '13, 5:03 am
Paddy Walker Paddy Walker is offline
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Default Re: Ten Men in a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bella92 View Post
Hang about mate. You said suicide was deliberately entering a situation which you know will certainly result in your death and you said the nazis had decided to murder 10 prisoners. When that priest took one of their places, he was deliberately entering a situation which he knew will certainly result in his death, so according to you, he committed suicide, which is a mortal sin.
suicide is taking ones own life out of despair. 'no greater love can any man have than to lay down his life for his friends'.
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