Praying to Mary and the Saints - Page 2

godisgood77 · #16 Feb 20, '13, 2:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mab23

define pray

pray means to make an earnest petition to : to ask

so when I say Hail Mary full of grace... Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death

I am asking her for her intercession -

Do not confuse pray with worship

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CML6VeNwjgY

tim staples on this ^^^^^^^

Thanks... I really enjoy Tim Staples.

Question about your tagline... Can Mary really save the world through the rosary and scapular or otherwise? I think this is adjacent to my original question.

Can we ask for or expect anything other than prayers to God almighty from Mary and the Saints? Seems like only a divine nature can grant anything beyond prayers...which limits the options to God alone.

SonSearcher · #17 Feb 20, '13, 2:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by godisgood77

Okay... restart using an example.

St. Patrick, I seek your intercession... Please hear me and pray to God almighty that my wife and I will be granted the necessary grace to face the great challenges ahead.....

VS.

St. Patrick, I seek your intercession... Please grant my wife and I the necessary grace to face the challenges ahead...

Simple illustrative examples, but clearly different.

I don't mean to nit pick, but this has been weighing on me.

I think that the first prayer is perfectly okay..... the second is not correct.

But I would like to interject that sometimes in a hurried prayer or when you begin to pay attention to your prayer life you notice maybe habits or prayers that resemble the latter more than the former.

It is the Holy Spirit who prays for us. God knows our intention however we humanly state it whether flawed in speech or not. So ....yes you are being nit picky but God searches man's heart and knows his true devotion.

Unless of course your actual intention is to "worship" another deity God will not hold anything like that against you.

SonSearcher · #18 Feb 20, '13, 2:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by godisgood77

Thanks... I really enjoy Tim Staples.

Question about your tagline... Can Mary really save the world through the rosary and scapular or otherwise? I think this is adjacent to my original question.

Can we ask for or expect anything other than prayers to God almighty from Mary and the Saints? Seems like only a divine nature can grant anything beyond prayers...which limits the options to God alone.

Mary cannot "save" the world directly. But through her apparitions (some Vatican approved) she pleads with us to pray more, and sometimes includes the rosary in that plea. In the Gospel her last words to us are "Do whatever He tells you." She plays a role in our salvation if only it is an instructive one. Even though it is indirect as long as it is more prayer to God through any devotion we are better off and closer to being "saved"

godisgood77 · #19 Feb 20, '13, 2:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonSearcher

Mary cannot "save" the world directly. But through her apparitions (some Vatican approved) she pleads with us to pray more, and sometimes includes the rosary in that plea. In the Gospel her last words to us are "Do whatever He tells you." She plays a role in our salvation if only it is an instructive one. Even though it is indirect as long as it is more prayer to God through any devotion we are better off and closer to being "saved"

Thanks for the clarification... I think you can see why someone would be confused after reading that.

KP3243 · #20 Feb 20, '13, 3:21 pm

Catholics are the only Christians who offer sacrifice to God our worship IS different then Protestants we would never do that for Mary or the Saints. The book of Revelation goes over prayer to the saints as intercessors. It's really simple.

mlamg · #21 Feb 20, '13, 5:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTNYC

But... you just communicated with us....

I know your justifications for it, I'm just saying what I personally do.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." And since Jesus is God, I pray only to God. There is no other mediator.

BTNYC · #22 Feb 20, '13, 9:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlamg

I know your justifications for it, I'm just saying what I personally do.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." And since Jesus is God, I pray only to God. There is no other mediator.

Understood.

And thank you for the beautiful scripture verse. If I may, I'd like to quote the verses immediately preceding it:

"I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
1 St Timothy 2:1-4

And since I doubt anyone would begruge me a few more verses for our edification, here they are:

"Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. Elias was a man passible like unto us: and with prayer he prayed that it might not rain upon the earth, and it rained not for three years and six months. And he prayed again: and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit."
St James 5:16-18

"And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us"
Hebrews 12:1

"And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel."
Apocalypse 8:3,4

**LilyM** · #23 Feb 20, '13, 10:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by godisgood77

Okay... restart using an example.

St. Patrick, I seek your intercession... Please hear me and pray to God almighty that my wife and I will be granted the necessary grace to face the great challenges ahead.....

VS.

St. Patrick, I seek your intercession... Please grant my wife and I the necessary grace to face the challenges ahead...

Simple illustrative examples, but clearly different.

I don't mean to nit pick, but this has been weighing on me.

Ok, let's say you have an older sister. She earns no money of her own but gets pocket money every week from your mother. The two of you are in a store, you want to buy a candy bar but you've left your wallet at home.

Are you really going to say ''Hey sis, can you lend me some of Mum's money?' Since the money is actually earned by your mother. Or are you going to say 'Hey sis, can you lend me some of YOUR money'?

God gives every good gift to His saints, and through them to others, which is why St Paul can say in scripture 'I (Paul) become all things to all men that by all means I (Paul) might save some.' Yes, God saves, but Paul is privileged to be a co-labourer with God in that work of salvation. We are all co-labourers with God - what a lovely thought that is!

vsedriver · #24 Feb 21, '13, 12:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by godisgood77

Okay... restart using an example.

St. Patrick, I seek your intercession... Please hear me and pray to God almighty that my wife and I will be granted the necessary grace to face the great challenges ahead.....

VS.

St. Patrick, I seek your intercession... Please grant my wife and I the necessary grace to face the challenges ahead...

Simple illustrative examples, but clearly different.

I don't mean to nit pick, but this has been weighing on me.

this is a good example yet the person using the second version may say those words but have a different mental understanding. They could still be asking for intercession and not expecting the results to be from some power the saint possesses.

Although we may hear a person's words, they may be thinking something entirely different. So it would be one thing to take them aside and ask them if they believe the saint has power to grant requests. If they say yes, then gently and charitably explain that the saint can only intercede for us. Only God has the power to answer prayers.

frjohnmaryt · #25 Feb 21, '13, 12:31 am

give time to pray and you will understand

vsedriver · #26 Feb 21, '13, 12:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlamg

I know your justifications for it, I'm just saying what I personally do.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." And since Jesus is God, I pray only to God. There is no other mediator.

So you never ask anyone to pray for you?

frjohnmaryt · #27 Feb 21, '13, 12:41 am

prayer is needed by all christians in all continents

**JRKH** · #28 Feb 21, '13, 3:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

Ok, let's say you have an older sister. She earns no money of her own but gets pocket money every week from your mother. The two of you are in a store, you want to buy a candy bar but you've left your wallet at home.

Are you really going to say ''Hey sis, can you lend me some of Mum's money?' Since the money is actually earned by your mother. Or are you going to say 'Hey sis, can you lend me some of YOUR money'?

God gives every good gift to His saints, and through them to others, which is why St Paul can say in scripture 'I (Paul) become all things to all men that by all means I (Paul) might save some.' Yes, God saves, but Paul is privileged to be a co-labourer with God in that work of salvation. We are all co-labourers with God - what a lovely thought that is!

frjohnmaryt · #29 Feb 21, '13, 4:50 am

Prayer is mostly needed today. Believe it or not, but it is the only means to avoid the undersworld forces who are making wars in various ways. These 'forces' are known as demons or satan. Their primary aim is to turn people away from God. To avoid that is to have faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ who is the way for life, the trurth of life and life himself.

**Tantum ergo** · #30 Feb 21, '13, 7:10 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by godisgood77

Okay... restart using an example.

St. Patrick, I seek your intercession... Please hear me and pray to God almighty that my wife and I will be granted the necessary grace to face the great challenges ahead.....

VS.

St. Patrick, I seek your intercession... Please grant my wife and I the necessary grace to face the challenges ahead...

Simple illustrative examples, but clearly different.

I don't mean to nit pick, but this has been weighing on me.

Many of us, especially of an older age, practice what is called "Catholic SHORTHAND'.

In illustration 2, despite the words, "place grant my wife and I" without the 'pray to God almighty' of the first part, we Catholics understand that the part of 'pray to God Almighty that He GRANT to us is always understood.

We don't always say it but we always think and pray it.
God can grant THROUGH people, but what is granted is ALWAYS through God.

That's how I understood in my old 'Baltimore Catechism' days and my mother, at 83, understands it that way as well.