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  #481  
Old Feb 20, '13, 3:04 pm
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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Originally Posted by 1protestant View Post
that's interesting -- if you are saying "if" God the Holy Spirit acts out side of the roman catholic sacraments-- but mosly not.

because then you are saying you don't recognize God the Holy Spirit manifesting healing , edification, comfort prophesy - in other "evangelical protestants..

interesting perspective
jmcrae said nothing of the sort, friend.

Non-Catholics can be saved, but that's different from saying they will be saved.

And the Holy Spirit is present in manifold ways in all sorts of ecclesial communities. That is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
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  #482  
Old Feb 20, '13, 4:39 pm
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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Originally Posted by 1protestant View Post
that's interesting -- if you are saying "if" God the Holy Spirit acts out side of the roman catholic sacraments-- but mosly not.
The ordinary means of salvation is a right relationship with Christ in His Catholic Church, by means of His Sacraments.

Can He act outside of them? Yes, and clearly He does, since we have many converts every day coming into the Church, drawn there by God, outside of the Sacraments.

Could someone die in the Protestant faith and be saved? Under certain conditions, they could - if they had no way of knowing that Christ established the Catholic Church, for example, alongside never having committed any mortal sin after their Baptism, thus dying in a state of grace.

But what about a Protestant who doesn't die in a state of grace? What if he has committed unrepented sin within the period of time since his baptism? Does his mere profession of "Lord, Lord" gain him entrance to the Kingdom, simply because he has been falsely taught that it ought to? (Would God see Himself as bound to a promise that He never actually made?)

That, I don't know. That, I wouldn't rely on, if it were my soul in question. Other people can take their chances if they like to.

The Holy Spirit is present in other churches, and in other religions, and in the marketplace, and everywhere, drawing all people to Christ. Many of them resist. Not all will be saved.
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  #483  
Old Feb 21, '13, 3:41 pm
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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Originally Posted by ltwin View Post
Almost. According to David Bebbington in Evangelicalism in Modern Britain: History from the 1730s to 1980s:



These are, according to Bebbington,



Now, admittedly, these are broad categories. However, they sort of have to be when summarizing evangelicalism because of the different streams. A Calvinist will have a slightly different way of explaining each part of the quadrilateral than a Wesleyan would. Also, the importance of each emphasis has shifted over time. Sometimes conversionism will have top priority, other times biblicism, etc.

I think you can appreciate the fact that evangelicalism truly crosses denominational lines. I mean you've got Church of England bishops and backcountry Baptists in America all subscribing to evangelicalism. It is a popular movement that covers the Protestant world and has been able to adapt to a variety of very different institutions.
Thanks for another thoughtful response!

When did the current form of evangelicalism (I presume it's been around in Protestantism from the beginning) become the movement it is presently?

Thanks again.
  #484  
Old Feb 21, '13, 6:37 pm
ltwin ltwin is offline
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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When did the current form of evangelicalism (I presume it's been around in Protestantism from the beginning) become the movement it is presently?
Not really sure what you mean by the "current form" of evangelicalism.

Protestants have always called themselves evangelical, which refers to "gospel". Lutherans were the first because of Luther's "rediscovery of the gospel." But Evangelicalism as we know it today has roots in the Anglosphere, particularly the exchange of ideas between Britain and America.

Basically what happened was that in the 18th century there was this grand fusion of Pietism, Presbyterianism, and Puritanism. Pietism emerged from Continental Europe (think German Lutheran lands) and was brought to America by immigrants. Pietism was a broad movement that could be found in the conservative established Lutheran state churches or in separatist groups or in radical prophetic movements. It was begun as a revival of piety in the Lutheran Church. The central characteristic was "the importance of experiential (or in the argot of the day, 'experimental') religion, a warmhearted piety that was more important than mere intellectual assent to prescribed dogmas. Indeed, Pietism in Europe very often arose as a protest against a cold orthodoxy, which bordered on scholasticism, a highly intellectualized or ratiocinated theology" (Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, s.v. "Pietism"). From Presbyterianism, evangelicalism got doctrinal precisionism that can still be seen in Reformed Evangelicals. From New England Puritanism, evangelicals got "individualistic introspection" in the words of Randall Balmer. These all come together during the Great Awakening during the 1730s-1740s.

The Great Awakening was triggered by Anglican minister George Whitefield, whose meetings knited together a bunch of separate revivals going on throughout the 13 colonies. There was the revival in Johnathan Edward's Massachusett's congregation. You had the Dutch in New Jersey experiencing a pietistic awakening, and you had the sacramental seasons of the Scots-Irish Presbyterians in the Middle Colonies. Thomas S. Kidd in his book about the Great Awakening quotes from a Presbyterian minister describing a sacramental meeting in New Brunswick:

Quote:
Frequently at Sacramental Seasons in New-Brunswick, there have been signal Displays of the divine Power and Presence: divers have been convinced of Sin by the Sermons then preached, some converted, and many much affected with the Love of God in Jesus Christ. O the sweet Meltings that I have often seen on such Occasions among many! New-Brunswick did then look like a Field the Lord had blessed: It was like a little Jerusalem, to which the scattered Tribes with eager haste repaired at Sacramental Solemnities; and there they Fed on the Fatness of God's House, and drunk of the River of his Pleasures.
While there were ethnic and theological differences between these various streams, they all focused on the need for conversion followed by an effective piety. This is exemplified by John Wesley's "Aldersgate Experience" in 1738 when he found his heart "strangely warmed." Lesser important but characteristic nonetheless is a suspicion of worldliness, wealth, and ecclesiastical pretension.

The Second Great Awakening during the 1790s and 1830s gave rise to evangelical reform movements: the Temperance Crusade, the female seminary movement, penal reform, and abolitionism. Evangelicals during this time had much more optimistic eschatology: As the nation and the world was converted to Christianity, society could be transformed. They were building the Kingdom of God.

Also at this time, an important shift happened. In the First Great Awakening, Johnathan Edwards had taught that "revival" was a "surprising work of God," but during the Second Great Awakening revivalists such as Charles Grandison Finney emphasized the human role in salvation. Revival was not just a sovereign work of God but could be precipitated by human efforts. Since this time, Evangelicalism has leaned toward Arminianism rather than Calvinism. This is reflected in what is often called "decision theology." It is the idea that man can choose God, rather than complete predestination.

In the South, evangelicalism did become a civilizing influence, however it ditched much of the reforming zeal of northern Evangelicalism for obvious reasons. Southern Evangelicalism became identified with the established social order. At the same time, Evangelicalism was adopted by African slaves, and it continues to be the defining feature of African-American Protestantism in the US.

(Continued in next post)
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  #485  
Old Feb 21, '13, 6:37 pm
ltwin ltwin is offline
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

(Continued from above)

After the Civil War, Evangelical eschatology got more depressing. It's at this time that you start seeing dispensationalism and premillenialism take hold. You also begin to see the fragmentation of American Protestantism.

Modernism emerges in American churches. Evangelicals (called Fundamentalists at this time for the "Fundamentals":biblical inerrancy, the Virgin Birth, Christ's atonement and resurrection, the authenticity of biblical miracles, and dispensational premlillenialism ) put up resistance. Polarization occurs. Fundamentalists stress the "Fundamentals", while liberals (or "modernists" as they were called at this time) embrace activism in the form of the Social Gospel. After the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925, the Fundamentalists basically give up on society and withdraw to form their own Fundamentalist subculture. They had become discredited in the larger American society as ignorant and backward. They had lost control of the Protestant mainline to the liberals.

Simultaneous with the post-Civil War era Fundamentalist-Modernist Controversy, you have the rise of the Holiness Movement and its stress on "Sanctification" within and without the Methodist Church. The Methodists kick the Holiness out eventually, and then some Holiness people start speaking in tongues and you get Pentecostalism. Both the Holiness and Pentecostal groups continued in different ways the activist tradition of Evangelicalism. Think of the Salvation Army (holiness) and the early Pentecostals who challenged the racial barriers of American society by integrated worship. Both groups had a lot of success with poor people.

By the 1940s and 1950s, you have many conservative Protestants who want to move beyond the limits of Fundamentalism. They become the New Evangelicals or Neo-Evangelicals. According to one of their leaders, Neo-Evangelicalism is "progressive Fundamentalism with a social message." They shed the anti-intellectual image of the Fundamentalists and cautiously embraced biblical criticism. They also called into question dispensationalism. Billy Graham is an example of a Neo-Evangelical, and he was called a "sell-out" by Fundamentalists because he cooperated with liberal clergymen. Neo-Evangelicalism was highly successful. One reason was that it was willing to adapt to changing cultural forms, which Fundamentalism was not willing to do. It was also more open to other kinds evangelical movements, like Wesleyan-Holiness and Pentecostals, whom it invited into cooperation and fellowship.

Institutions like the National Association of Evangelicals, Christianity Today, the Evangelical Theological Seminary, and Fuller Seminary, were all begun by Neo-Evangelicals as attempts to build a broad evangelical cooperation that could effectively engage with the rest of American society.

By the 1970s, you have the rise of the Religious Right, which is a political reassertion of Fundamentalist and evangelical influence. However, it should be pointed out that not all evangelicals support or consider themselves part of the Religious Right, which they see as more of a political than a religious effort.

You also get the rise in the 1970s and 80s of the TV prosperity preachers and networks like TBN.
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. . . just as the lifting up of the hands is a symbol of confidence and longing, so in order to show our humility, we fall down on our knees. (John Calvin, Commentary on Acts 20:36)
  #486  
Old Feb 22, '13, 5:10 pm
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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Originally Posted by mark a View Post
Thanks for another thoughtful response!

When did the current form of evangelicalism (I presume it's been around in Protestantism from the beginning) become the movement it is presently?

Thanks again.
With the publication of "The Calvary Road" by Roy Hession in the early 1920s. It was the first time a "manual of evangelism" had ever been published, establishing a systematic method of converting people to Christ. Street evangelism has been around forever, of course, but this was the first time there was a systematic guide to make it happen.

Billy Graham popularized it with his Crusades, and "non-denominational" churches began appearing during the 1970s.
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According to Quentin Tarentino, (Kill Bill Volume 2) Clark Kent is Superman's opinion of the human race. It occurs to me that, using the same logic, Jesus of Nazareth is God's.

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  #487  
Old Feb 22, '13, 5:20 pm
ltwin ltwin is offline
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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Originally Posted by jmcrae View Post
With the publication of "The Calvary Road" by Roy Hession in the early 1920s. It was the first time a "manual of evangelism" had ever been published, establishing a systematic method of converting people to Christ. Street evangelism has been around forever, of course, but this was the first time there was a systematic guide to make it happen.

Billy Graham popularized it with his Crusades, and "non-denominational" churches began appearing during the 1970s.
Most evangelicals do not do "street" style evangelism. You'd have to be pretty committed to do it today, and most people are really lazy and unless you do it in the right way it comes off as creepy to a lot of people today.
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. . . just as the lifting up of the hands is a symbol of confidence and longing, so in order to show our humility, we fall down on our knees. (John Calvin, Commentary on Acts 20:36)
  #488  
Old Feb 23, '13, 9:18 pm
Telestia Telestia is offline
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
Telestia,

May I ask the name of the type of church you attend so I may see the statement of Faith?
My wife and I attend and Fellowship at a Messianic Jewish Congregation on Saturdays, Plus a Bible Study at a home of wonderful Jewish Lawyer on Tuesday evenings. And celebration of the Jewish Holidays and their meanings. Today we celebrated Purim.

On Sundays we attend a Park Free Evangelical Church, and its' true, we do not pay for parking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
May I ask ihow many books the Bible you read has in it?
66.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian View Post
May I ask if you believe that the Bible is the sole authority for you?
No. The indwelling Holy Spirit is my main helper.

I use Professor Walter C. Kaiser, jr. for great insights into the Old Testment.

And, the works of Professor Norman Geisler for Bible apologetics.

And I use Professor Ronald Munson's teaching of 'Informal Logic'.
  #489  
Old Feb 23, '13, 9:26 pm
CopticChristian CopticChristian is offline
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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Originally Posted by Telestia View Post
My wife and I attend and Fellowship at a Messianic Jewish Congregation on Saturdays, Plus a Bible Study at a home of wonderful Jewish Lawyer on Tuesday evenings. And celebration of the Jewish Holidays and their meanings. Today we celebrated Purim.

On Sundays we attend a Park Free Evangelical Church, and its' true, we do not pay for parking.

66.

No. The indwelling Holy Spirit is my main helper.

I use Professor Walter C. Kaiser, jr. for great insights into the Old Testment.

And, the works of Professor Norman Geisler for Bible apologetics.

And I use Professor Ronald Munson's teaching of 'Informal Logic'.
Telestia,

Then as a former Catholic, you have embraced Protestant thought under the guise of Messianic Judaism....

http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer?...ement_of_faith

Quote:
Statement of Faith

The MJAA Believes: That the BIBLE, consisting of the Tenach (Old Covenant/Testament) and the later writings commonly known as the B'rit Hadasha (New Testament/Covenant), is the only infallible and authoritative word of God. We recognize its divine inspiration, and accept its teachings as our final authority in all matters of faith and practice (Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Proverbs 3:1-6; Psalm 119:89, 105; Isaiah 48:12-16; Romans 8:14-17; II Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).
Accepting Protocanonical writings as your Word of God absent the Deuterocanonicals...
  #490  
Old Feb 25, '13, 3:49 pm
mark a mark a is offline
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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Originally Posted by jmcrae View Post
With the publication of "The Calvary Road" by Roy Hession in the early 1920s. It was the first time a "manual of evangelism" had ever been published, establishing a systematic method of converting people to Christ. Street evangelism has been around forever, of course, but this was the first time there was a systematic guide to make it happen.

Billy Graham popularized it with his Crusades, and "non-denominational" churches began appearing during the 1970s.
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ltwin View Post
You also get the rise in the 1970s and 80s of the TV prosperity preachers and networks like TBN.
Where do you see Evangelical Protestantism in 40 years?
  #491  
Old Feb 25, '13, 3:54 pm
mark a mark a is offline
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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On Sundays we attend a Park Free Evangelical Church, and its' true, we do not pay for parking.
Good one. I know of a local church and seminary named "Faith Free Presbyterian".
  #492  
Old Feb 27, '13, 4:56 pm
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Default Re: Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

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Good one. I know of a local church and seminary named "Faith Free Presbyterian".
Someone forgot to market-test the name. I had to think about it for a minute until I realized that "Free Presbyterian" is the name of the denomination.
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According to Quentin Tarentino, (Kill Bill Volume 2) Clark Kent is Superman's opinion of the human race. It occurs to me that, using the same logic, Jesus of Nazareth is God's.

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