MERGED: "Musical abuse" at Mass tonight/Rock/Contemporary - Page 14

RDB · #**196** Feb 20, '13, 8:59 am

Wow. While interesting to read the discourse here, the original thread seems to have been reduced to a discussion of definitions and semantics.

I'm a musician in a rock / blues band, as I said. Trying to define "rock" by a time signature is like saying that if you have long hair you're a drug addict. There is no measurable, definitive means to define "rock" music. Polka, maybe. Rock, no.

The point I think is missed. Some, like me, believe that music that allows you to connect with the Holy Spirit while maintaining your hearing ability is preferred over that which is performed in a manner that evokes applause for the performer rather than a tear for our Lord's passion and sacrifice.

Sarabande · #**197** Feb 20, '13, 9:35 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDB

I'm a musician in a rock / blues band, as I said. Trying to define "rock" by a time signature is like saying that if you have long hair you're a drug addict. There is no measurable, definitive means to define "rock" music. Polka, maybe. Rock, no..

Anruari further clarified his/her thought regarding this, but I do agree with you that you can't define "rock" by a time signature. In his/her following post, you will see Anruari would also agree with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDB

The point I think is missed. Some, like me, believe that music that allows you to connect with the Holy Spirit while maintaining your hearing ability is preferred over that which is performed in a manner that evokes applause for the performer rather than a tear for our Lord's passion and sacrifice.

Actually, I don't think that point is missed. A number of times it has been mentioned that the way a piece of music is performed can make a world of difference of how it will be perceived. An aspect of that is, yes, playing music too loudly so that it becomes like a concert, or to a point that you lose your hearing. I'm very sensitive to that because I lost much of my hearing as a child and went through a lot to get that hearing back.

I think because the word, "solemn" have been used by the Church and by many to describe how a mass is "supposed" to be or how the music "should" be, I think it is important to find out what the Church actually means by that. Does she mean it to mean only the more "serious" and "heavy" definition of it or does she mean it to encompass everything within the definitions from the feelings of awe and magnificence. Then, in addition, how does one figure out what is actually sublime and awe-inspiring?

As Tigg pointed out, even though "solemn" is often used by the Church to describe mass and music, the guidelines are also vague, so it does create this kind of discussion. If it wasn't vague and very detailed and precise, this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

I do agree with you that this is an interesting discussion.

Armor of Light · #**198** Feb 20, '13, 9:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by anruari

In the English language it would not be correct to describe Christian Rock as "Solemn" - entirely the opposite. Some worship music from the praise and worship genre certainly can be but "Rock" music - No. you're stretching the definitions of the word "rock"
Rock music is defined as a 4:4 rhythm, with a strong beat. using Guitar and Bass Guitar and drums. (other instruments may be included). It follows a Verse - Chorus - Verse pattern which is highly structured.

Homer Simpson said it best:

"Christian rock doen't make Chrisianity better, it only makes rock worse."

opus101 · #**199** Feb 20, '13, 9:49 am

Bishop Olmsted sheds light on the term "solemn" as regards the sacred liturgy. He uses "festive" as part of his description. (next to last paragraph):http://www.diocesephoenix.org/bishop...tory=565787896

Christmas is referred to as a "solemnity" on the liturgical calendar. It doesn't necessarily mean somber.

The "solemnity" of the Mass is part of Church doctrine, it is found in the catechism.

Sarabande · #**200** Feb 20, '13, 10:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by opus101

Bishop Olmsted sheds light on the term "solemn" as regards the sacred liturgy. He uses "festive" as part of his description. (next to last paragraph):http://www.diocesephoenix.org/bishop...tory=565787896

Christmas is referred to as a "solemnity" on the liturgical calendar. It doesn't necessarily mean somber.

The "solemnity" of the Mass is part of Church doctrine, it is found in the catechism.

Thanks. I don't have time to read it right now, but it's nice to see a Bishop describe it. So it would fit more into the all-around definition of "solemn". Do you know if there are any actual Church documents on the definition?

opus101 · #**201** Feb 20, '13, 10:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarabande

Thanks. I don't have time to read it right now, but it's nice to see a Bishop describe it. So it would fit more into the all-around definition of "solemn". Do you know if there are any actual Church documents on the definition?

I will look into it. The catechism speaks of it as one of the qualities connected to the liturgical action (1157):http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P38.HTM, but doesn't actually define the term.

hamburglar · #**202** Feb 20, '13, 3:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatriceA

Your opinion, I just don't agree. I think modern music and instruments can glorify God, just as much as gregorian chant can. Marty Haugen may not be your taste but I hardly think his lyrics are borderline heretical, unless you can back up that claim with facts, its still only your opinion. Would I want modern music at every mass? Nope. But I like the wide variety of music available to use for our Masses, Thank God we don't have a "one size fits all" music ministry. If you didn't like this particular mass time, find another one that fits your tastes.

The documents of the Second Vatican Council would like to disagree with you. This isn't just my opinion, it is the opinion of the Church. The Church has stated on numerous occasions that Gregorian Chant is to have pride of place.

Again, I know most people are poorly catechized and we won't see a return to proper music for a while. But drum sets and pop music? The "band" really gets into it and sway back and forth to the beat and such. This is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, not a concert.

Gregorian Chant has a rich Tradition in the Church, being used for centuries. The kind of music I encountered has only been widespread in the last 10 years of so.

AssisiFollower · #**203** Feb 20, '13, 5:27 pm

Hello friends,

I have seen here some of you discuss the 'drumset and guitar problem' which many of us are trying to work through. In my entire county, there are no Catholic churches that do not have this problem. I have tried them all ):

I honestly cannot do it anymore. It is interfering majorly with my relationship with Christ in the mass. I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament, and most of the songs have theological problems to them which severely ennervate me.

The closest Byzantine rite church is three hours away. I want to start going to the Greek Orthodox Church down the street just for the liturgy, but I cannot do this because by my convictions I must keep full faithfulness to the Roman Catholic Church.

Any suggestions for this? Please help. It becomes almost painful for me sometimes during mass. Of course I cannot and will not stop going to mass, so I don't know what to do. Thank you for your help.

AssisiFollower · #**204** Feb 20, '13, 5:31 pm

Another thing is that there is this major problem with the agnus dei. I keep hearing at different churches this call-and-answer pop song that makes a mockery of what is for me the most beautiful prayer of the mass. Would you sing that at the foot of the cross? I don't think so, so don't bring it into the mass ):

Zekariya · #**205** Feb 20, '13, 5:33 pm

Offer up your sufferings to God as a sacrifice. Remember that even an irreverent Mass (that is valid) is still the eternal Sacrifice of Christ being re-presented. Christ is still present (Body Blood, Soul, and Divinity). Prayers offered.

OraLabora · #**206** Feb 20, '13, 5:40 pm

Any monasteries near you? That might be the answer. I'm 35 min. away from a wonderful Benedictine abbey. Gregorian chant (propers and ordinary) every day, the rest in French plainchant, even the readings are sung. Very beautiful. I go to Mass there every Sunday.

mburn16 · #**207** Feb 20, '13, 5:43 pm

"I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament, and most of the songs have theological problems to them which severely ennervate me. "

With due respect, would you find organ and singing to be any less distracting? Because, while I can appreciate your frustrations (though I don't happen to share them), its worth pointing out that music during and after communion is entirely appropriate and permitted.

opus101 · #**208** Feb 20, '13, 5:46 pm

Assissi, I can feel your pain. For some people, it is more than difficult to endure such things. I've been in a similar situation for years, but have finally found a nearby parish that has very simple and reverent Masses - simple chant responses and "regular" hymns with organist. Unfortunately for you, there doesn't seem to be a parish anywhere around you where you can seek refuge.

Are there any more or less traditional convents or monasteries in your area? If so, maybe you could attend Mass there. Another option is to attend the Masses at your parish, but also watch the Mass on EWTN.

I'm so sorry that you have to go through this, it is a very difficult trial. Hang on, maybe change will be coming soon.

opus101 · #**209** Feb 20, '13, 6:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AssisiFollower

Another thing is that there is this major problem with the agnus dei. I keep hearing at different churches this call-and-answer pop song that makes a mockery of what is for me the most beautiful prayer of the mass.

I think I know which setting you are talking about. I'm trying to find a video of it on youtube, but it's hard because I don't know the name of the particular Mass setting.
So far, the only thing I've come up with is the following, which is usually (in my experience) not done in such a popular-type music rendition:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJnhAinbP6A

JamesCaruso · #**210** Feb 20, '13, 6:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mburn16

"I cannot continue to listen to guitar while praying after receiving the Blessed Sacrament, and most of the songs have theological problems to them which severely ennervate me. "

With due respect, would you find organ and singing to be any less distracting? Because, while I can appreciate your frustrations (though I don't happen to share them), its worth pointing out that music during and after communion is entirely appropriate and permitted.

After Vatican II it fell to the Sacred Congregation of Rites (today called Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) to apply the norms of Sacrosanctum Concilium. Musicam sacram (Sacred Music) establishes what can be called sacred music.

I won't bore you with a lengthy rendering of its contents, but I cherry picked a few paragraphs on point:

...The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lift up men's minds to God and higher things.

"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

...However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.

Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/m...nstruments.htm