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  #76  
Old Mar 18, '13, 7:52 pm
aemcpa aemcpa is offline
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

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Originally Posted by YoungTradCath View Post
So while this thread may be like 5 pages long, I've probably spent a whole 8 minutes of my life on this thread.
I actually spent more time on this thread responding to people complaining about this thread than I have contributing to the thread.
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  #77  
Old Mar 18, '13, 9:47 pm
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

Let's look at this from another perspective. I believe that many, if not most, posters here are not familiar with the inner workings of religious life.

The mozzetta was introduced as a papal garment for several reasons. First of all, it was a way of staying warm. It took the place of the long mantle. It's awkward to wear a long mantle inside. The red is with the white trim was introduced, because they are royal colors, along with purple.

Next, we have not had a regular pope in almost two centuries. Our experience of popes, since the late 18th century has been secular popes who do not have a vow of poverty and all of whom have been European.

This pope is a regular bishop, not a secular bishop and he's not European. Like most of those born in the colonies, he has European ancestry. In fact, he's first generation Argentinian.

As he told the media when he met with them, he was influenced by one of the cardinals to embrace poverty. For this reason, he took the name Francis.

Now, let's go back to the first Franciscan bishop, St. Bonaventure. Bonaventure was an absentee bishop who was named a cardinal and who hung the red hat on a tree branch and refused to wear it or the choir robes. He never wore anything other than the brother's grey habit. Later Franciscan popes also refused to wear the usual papal red. They wore the Franciscan habit or the white cassock.

The Dominican popes, Pope Benedict XI, Pope Benedict XIII, Pope Innocent V, and Pope Pius V wore the Dominican habit, not the red robes. Pope Pius V was such a holy and beloved pope that Pope Gregory XIII honored him by wearing a white cassock, hence the traditional white cassock worn by popes.

As you can see, there is a tradition that is part of the line of regular popes. We're not familiar with it, because none of us were alive during the pontificate of the last regular pope.

Not wearing the mozzetta or the pontifical stole is not a rejection of tradition. On the contrary, it's very consistent with the tradition of the regular popes.

What the Holy Father chooses to do, to wear, to speak, or not do, etc is all a mystery, because we have never had a Jesuit pope.

I believe that we're going to be seeing much more of religious life than many people care to see. We already have been told that the Holy Father has asked the two Superior Generals (that of the Order of Friars Minor, Jose Rodriguez Carballo and that of the Jesuits, Adolfo Nicolas Pachon, respectively President and Vice-President of the Union of Superior Generals) to concelebrate with him. Vatican Information Service

This is a first for a papal inauguration. Religious are not usually included among the high ranking prelates. Popes don't usually appoint the president and vice president of the Unioin of Superiors General. Pope Francis just made those two appointments. Those positions are usually elected by the rest of us who are superiors. It's very telling that he has chosen to appoint a Jesuit and a Franciscan to lead the superiors general of the world.

I can't say whether he will or will not wear red, but those who have a desire for tradition will have to go back to the 18th century and further back to understand that there is actually a tradition for regular popes. It's a tradition of simplicity of manners, scholarship, preference for the poor, and liturgical simplicity. They have a tradition of being popular (as in men of the people).

One more thing, the Vatican did comment on the vestments on the day of the election. I don't know who made the comment about the carnival, but that's not what the Vatican quoted the Holy Father. Apparently, the master of ceremonies pointed to the mozzetta and other vestments, not trying to tell the pope what to wear, but just pointing to the fact that they were there. This would make perfect sense. Go figure, you've just been elected pope. You're probably overwhelmed. You need someone to show you around the dressing room. In any case, his response was, "Leave them there." Then he asked the MC to bring the stole for the blessing.

It seems that he knew these clothes were available to him, but he was not interested in wearing them. This is no indication that he will never wear any of it or that he is snubbing them. It means what he said. "Leave them there."

I don't think that there is a need to read anything negative into that comment. If we recall, someone asked the Capuchin Franciscan cardinal what he would wear if elected. He looked perplexed. Then said, "My habit. What else?"

To religious, these things are not part of our mindset or of our view of the Church or the papacy. We see these things as OK for a secular pope, but it would not occur to us to dress up unless it was mandated, such as for the conclave. That situation is different. You're not the boss. You follow the rules. When you're the boss, you're free to think as a regular, not a secular.

For those who want to try to understand Pope Francis, you'll have to start thinking like a regular. If you perseverate in thinking like a secular, you'll be very confused. We just don't think the same way that secular Catholics think. It's drilled out of us during 10 years of formation between postulancy and final vows.

I'll tell you where you may find more secular thinking, among the religious congregations, but not in the religious orders.
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  #78  
Old Mar 19, '13, 1:42 am
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

As i said before, this is definitely a regular pope. For those who may have missed the inauguration mass, the bishops were wearing Franciscan chasubles. It's probably the first time since the last regular pope, who just happened to be a Franciscan. The bishops were wearing the simple Roman-Franciscan chasuble with the Franciscan Coat of Arms on the chest, the Tau of St. Francis of Assisi. The Holy Father himself was wearing a white chasuble with the Jesuit colors and lines. It was a rather interesting combination. I did read somewhere that he asked the Franciscan of Mt. La Verna to help put together the liturgy. That's probably how they came about with the Roman-Franciscan vestments. He asked the Conventual Franciscan brothers who are not priests to be the official servers at the mass. The Jesuits to be the deacons.

It's too early to predict, but it seems that we're in for a pontificate that is very oriented toward male religious life and the poor.
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  #79  
Old Mar 19, '13, 3:58 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
As i said before, this is definitely a regular pope. For those who may have missed the inauguration mass, the bishops were wearing Franciscan chasubles. It's probably the first time since the last regular pope, who just happened to be a Franciscan. The bishops were wearing the simple Roman-Franciscan chasuble with the Franciscan Coat of Arms on the chest, the Tau of St. Francis of Assisi. The Holy Father himself was wearing a white chasuble with the Jesuit colors and lines. It was a rather interesting combination. I did read somewhere that he asked the Franciscan of Mt. La Verna to help put together the liturgy. That's probably how they came about with the Roman-Franciscan vestments. He asked the Conventual Franciscan brothers who are not priests to be the official servers at the mass. The Jesuits to be the deacons.

It's too early to predict, but it seems that we're in for a pontificate that is very oriented toward male religious life and the poor.
Thanks for that, Bro.
I was watching and noticed the different chasubles right off the bat. I was curious as to their design and style.
It was a beautiful and reverent Mass, and it's simplicity wasnt a distraction at all, at least for me.

I read that Pope Francis' Fisherman ring is slightly different from others. Instead of being of solid gold, it is gold plated silver.
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  #80  
Old Mar 19, '13, 4:39 am
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

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Originally Posted by Marie5890 View Post
Thanks for that, Bro.
I was watching and noticed the different chasubles right off the bat. I was curious as to their design and style.
It was a beautiful and reverent Mass, and it's simplicity wasnt a distraction at all, at least for me.

I read that Pope Francis' Fisherman ring is slightly different from others. Instead of being of solid gold, it is gold plated silver.
The chasubles that the cardinals were wearing were originally designed for Franciscans back in the 13th century. The design came from the first habit that St. Francis wore. The original habit did not look anything like what we wear today. The closest habit to the original would be the one worn by the Capuchin Franciscan Friars. It's a simple tunic with a cowl attached to it. However, the original was grey with a Tau drawn on the chest using charcoal.

For those who don't know what the Tau is, it's the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It's very much like the upper case T. Later, as the number of brother-priests increased someone came up with a chasuble that had the T on it in honor of our Holy Father Francis (not the pope, the other Holy Father). It was what is called the Roman cut, which is like a huge circle rather than the fiddle back. I'm not sure when the fiddle back came into existence, but I know that it's a newer design.

The cardinals today wore the classic Roman-Franciscan chasuble with the Tau on the chest. Granted, it's not a beautiful vestment as some of the more elaborate fiddle backs are. To be honest, this one was not beautiful at all. Personally, I didn't like the combination of colors. However, they got the design correct.

It was also interesting to note that during the homily the Holy Father brought St. Francis into it several times. At some point, can't remember which prayer it was, he invoked St. Francis of Assisi along with St. Joseph. He also included St. Francis of Assisi into the canon, which I found interesting. The only ones who have permission to insert St. Francis into the Canon and into the Confetior are the Franciscans. I guess that if you're the pope and you're going to model your papacy on St. Francis of Assisi, you can do whatever you want. Who's going to say, "Hey, you can't do that."

It was also very striking that the servers were not only Franciscan brothers, but they did not wear cassocks. Instead, they wore the surplus over their habits and no shoes. Of course, these are the friars from Mt. LaVerna, where St. Francis received the stigmata. They don't wear shoes, even in winter.

There was also a strong Jesuit influence in the Holy Father's own vestments. They followed the simple and unpretentious Jesuit style. The Jesuits have always shunned any form of extravagance in vestments for mass. This is a tradition that goes back to the 1500s.

For those who are worried about tradition, there was a lot of tradition there. It was simply tradition that is not usually seen in secular circles. Since posts during that last 150+ years have been secular Catholics, we have not been exposed to this part of Catholic tradition.

Palm Sunday and Holy Week will tell if we're going to see more tradition coming from the religious life. I think that it will be good for the Latin Church. We've become very comfortable with secular clergy and hierarchy. Few dioceses have regular bishops. The result has been that the average traditionalist does not know or has forgotten that religious schools have traditions that are very much a part of Church life.

Many of the elements in the Ordinary Form of the mass and even in the architectural design of churches comes from religious orders. To the person who does not know this, it all seems very new. The fact is that it's very old.

I guess we'll know more come next Sunday at Palm Sunday mass, which will be the pope's next big public mass.

Obviously, he did not wear the mozzetta when he arrived, nor did he wear the gold cross that was made for him as is the case for every pope. He wears the silver cross of his episcopacy.

I heard the same thing that you did about the ring. That has a very reasonable explanation. Religious in solemn vows do not wear gold. Jesuits make solemn vows. He also changed the design of the ring. Someone explained what the new design is, but I can't recall right now.

It was also important to notice that he did not use the cathedra to preach. This is also a very Jesuit custom. Jesuit bishops (the few that there are) do not use the cathedra, because it's a royal symbol. St. Ignatius banned all forms of the regal from the Jesuit order.

Being a religious myself, I know how much it is drummed into our heads to avoid all of these things, to the point that they make us feel very uncomfortable. Think about it this way. It takes 10 years to become a solemnly professed male religious. That's the reason that there are so few communities in solemn vows. Most make simple vows. The formation is shorter. During the 10 years, the idea of simplicity and shunning anything that makes you look like a secular priest is drummed into you to the point that you have to push yourself, when you do have to accommodate. This may take some time for him or he may never do it. We'll just have to wait it out. The good part is that he is not being liturgically sloppy. He's just being a religious.

We'll be doing a lot of learning and a lot of surprises are yet to come.
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  #81  
Old Mar 19, '13, 5:34 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
The chasubles that the cardinals were wearing were originally designed for Franciscans back in the 13th century. The design came from the first habit that St. Francis wore. The original habit did not look anything like what we wear today. The closest habit to the original would be the one worn by the Capuchin Franciscan Friars. It's a simple tunic with a cowl attached to it. However, the original was grey with a Tau drawn on the chest using charcoal.

For those who don't know what the Tau is, it's the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It's very much like the upper case T. Later, as the number of brother-priests increased someone came up with a chasuble that had the T on it in honor of our Holy Father Francis (not the pope, the other Holy Father). It was what is called the Roman cut, which is like a huge circle rather than the fiddle back. I'm not sure when the fiddle back came into existence, but I know that it's a newer design.

The cardinals today wore the classic Roman-Franciscan chasuble with the Tau on the chest. Granted, it's not a beautiful vestment as some of the more elaborate fiddle backs are. To be honest, this one was not beautiful at all. Personally, I didn't like the combination of colors. However, they got the design correct.

It was also interesting to note that during the homily the Holy Father brought St. Francis into it several times. At some point, can't remember which prayer it was, he invoked St. Francis of Assisi along with St. Joseph. He also included St. Francis of Assisi into the canon, which I found interesting. The only ones who have permission to insert St. Francis into the Canon and into the Confetior are the Franciscans. I guess that if you're the pope and you're going to model your papacy on St. Francis of Assisi, you can do whatever you want. Who's going to say, "Hey, you can't do that."

It was also very striking that the servers were not only Franciscan brothers, but they did not wear cassocks. Instead, they wore the surplus over their habits and no shoes. Of course, these are the friars from Mt. LaVerna, where St. Francis received the stigmata. They don't wear shoes, even in winter.

There was also a strong Jesuit influence in the Holy Father's own vestments. They followed the simple and unpretentious Jesuit style. The Jesuits have always shunned any form of extravagance in vestments for mass. This is a tradition that goes back to the 1500s.

For those who are worried about tradition, there was a lot of tradition there. It was simply tradition that is not usually seen in secular circles. Since posts during that last 150+ years have been secular Catholics, we have not been exposed to this part of Catholic tradition.

Palm Sunday and Holy Week will tell if we're going to see more tradition coming from the religious life. I think that it will be good for the Latin Church. We've become very comfortable with secular clergy and hierarchy. Few dioceses have regular bishops. The result has been that the average traditionalist does not know or has forgotten that religious schools have traditions that are very much a part of Church life.

Many of the elements in the Ordinary Form of the mass and even in the architectural design of churches comes from religious orders. To the person who does not know this, it all seems very new. The fact is that it's very old.

I guess we'll know more come next Sunday at Palm Sunday mass, which will be the pope's next big public mass.

Obviously, he did not wear the mozzetta when he arrived, nor did he wear the gold cross that was made for him as is the case for every pope. He wears the silver cross of his episcopacy.

I heard the same thing that you did about the ring. That has a very reasonable explanation. Religious in solemn vows do not wear gold. Jesuits make solemn vows. He also changed the design of the ring. Someone explained what the new design is, but I can't recall right now.

It was also important to notice that he did not use the cathedra to preach. This is also a very Jesuit custom. Jesuit bishops (the few that there are) do not use the cathedra, because it's a royal symbol. St. Ignatius banned all forms of the regal from the Jesuit order.

Being a religious myself, I know how much it is drummed into our heads to avoid all of these things, to the point that they make us feel very uncomfortable. Think about it this way. It takes 10 years to become a solemnly professed male religious. That's the reason that there are so few communities in solemn vows. Most make simple vows. The formation is shorter. During the 10 years, the idea of simplicity and shunning anything that makes you look like a secular priest is drummed into you to the point that you have to push yourself, when you do have to accommodate. This may take some time for him or he may never do it. We'll just have to wait it out. The good part is that he is not being liturgically sloppy. He's just being a religious.

We'll be doing a lot of learning and a lot of surprises are yet to come.
Thank you for all this. I wont be surprised if there is a significant increase in vocations to the religious life during his pontificate.

Here is a picture of his ring
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  #82  
Old Mar 19, '13, 6:05 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

Bro.JR,

I wish there was a way of taking your post of recent days that are explaining to us what we are seeing with Pope Francis and how they relate to Catholic tradition that we dont usually get to see and put it in a thread of it's own

I think those posts have great educational value for those of us who are confused and thinking that we are seeing a break with tradition.
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Old Mar 19, '13, 6:49 am
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
As i said before, this is definitely a regular pope. For those who may have missed the inauguration mass, the bishops were wearing Franciscan chasubles. It's probably the first time since the last regular pope, who just happened to be a Franciscan.
Actually, those were the same chasubles used at Benedict XVI's installation Mass in 2005.
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Old Mar 19, '13, 8:51 am
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

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Actually, those were the same chasubles used at Benedict XVI's installation Mass in 2005.
I wondered about that. I figured that while there may be a couple of sets of matching (100s) of chasubles to choose from, there wouldn't bee too many choices and no one would be running up 100s of them in just a few days! (Yes, I know it would be possible but unlikely.)
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  #85  
Old Mar 19, '13, 2:26 pm
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

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I wondered about that. I figured that while there may be a couple of sets of matching (100s) of chasubles to choose from, there wouldn't bee too many choices and no one would be running up 100s of them in just a few days! (Yes, I know it would be possible but unlikely.)
Not to mention expensive. Can you imagine the labor and amount of fabric that's needed for such a large order.

That style of chasuble calls for a lot of fabric.
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  #86  
Old Mar 19, '13, 8:43 pm
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Exclamation Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/of-the-popes-mozzetta/

I read on an Italian blog (and so this is at the level of rumor for now) that the Roman ecclesiastical tailor shop Gammarelli sent a mozzetta over the the Apostolic Palace. A mozzetta is the elbow length red cape, often trimmed in ermine, worn by the Roman Pontiff over his white cassock.

Tuesday, today, is the Mass of the “inauguration” of Francis’ pontificate.

Tomorrow the Pope has an audience with delegations of Christian ‘churches’. Were the Pope to put on the mozzetta, that would be a good occasion. That would be the apt thing to do. It would be a sign of respect. The Pope will also soon have an audience with the diplomatic corps. The Pope, a head of state, should dress his part. The rest of the diplomats will.

This leads to “the point”, in case some of the enthusiasts run to the combox having missed it.

Remember, a mozzetta, in itself, is nothing. Popes don’t have to wear a mozzetta all the time. There are, however, occasions in which such trappings and signs of office, solemn and traditional, have their proper place. They send signals. The non-use of these symbols also sends signals.

People who say that these things are not important, or are bad, or that they should be eliminated are just plain wrong. That is a naive, shallow, approach to who we are. Catholics are not “either/or” when it comes to the dynamic interplay of the humble and the lofty. We are “both/and”, in proper measure, time and place.
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Old Mar 19, '13, 11:02 pm
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

Oh, please. He's not going to wear the mozzetta when he meets with diplomats. He's more likely to have them all over for lunch, as he did with Kirchner.

Father Z is due for a few years out in the cold, at least. The new pope simply doesn't think like he does about ecclesiastical dress and indeed the liturgy itself. After a period of rising interest in Renaissance hats, and in the liturgies of our grandparents', the church is turning away from that.

It's as simple as that.
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Old Mar 20, '13, 12:27 am
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

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After a period of rising interest in Renaissance hats, and in the liturgies of our grandparents', the church is turning away from that.

It's as simple as that.
Just because one Pope may not be interested in that (ie what you try to dismiss as interest in Renaissance hats, and in the liturgies of our grandparents', but which in reality is much deeper than that), doesn't mean the Church is. The seminarians, clergy, and laity interested in restoring these things will keep working to do so, as their aspirations have been affirmed as rightful. Even if the Pope were to outlaw these things (which I doubt he would), I am sure they would still pursue those ends through lawful means (seeking indults, etc.), just as happened before.
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Old Mar 20, '13, 12:40 am
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

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Oh, please. He's not going to wear the mozzetta when he meets with diplomats. He's more likely to have them all over for lunch, as he did with Kirchner.

Father Z is due for a few years out in the cold, at least. The new pope simply doesn't think like he does about ecclesiastical dress and indeed the liturgy itself. After a period of rising interest in Renaissance hats, and in the liturgies of our grandparents', the church is turning away from that.

It's as simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis315 View Post
Just because one Pope may not be interested in that (ie what you try to dismiss as interest in Renaissance hats, and in the liturgies of our grandparents', but which in reality is much deeper than that), doesn't mean the Church is. The seminarians, clergy, and laity interested in restoring these things will keep working to do so, as their aspirations have been affirmed as rightful. Even if the Pope were to outlaw these things (which I doubt he would), I am sure they would still pursue those ends through lawful means (seeking indults, etc.), just as happened before.
I think that we shouldn't second-guess anyone. That's my first thought. My second is that the important issues for the papacy right now are not what the pope wears. The Church is so huge and there are so many things happening and so much that has happened that what a pope wears should be the least of our concerns. There is enough in the pope's "to do" list to keep the next five popes busy.
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  #90  
Old Mar 20, '13, 1:35 am
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Default Re: Red mozzetta? Coat of Arms?

Maybe he was just feeling warm? I would think the mozzetta can make you hot underneath.
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