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  #1  
Old Mar 27, '13, 1:37 pm
Big BC Big BC is offline
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Default Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Greetings fellow posters,

I have a Protestant friend who verges on anti-Catholicism. He states that the Church is heretical in its doctrine and anti-Biblical. More specifically, his focus is on a quote from John Paul II. I can't find the exact quote, but it was something in regards that one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation. In essence, that all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.

My questions are this: Is this church doctrine, since the Pope said it? If not, does this then break the rule of Papal Infallibility?

Confused Catholic
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  #2  
Old Mar 27, '13, 1:48 pm
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Save yourself the stress and make him do the homework. Don't let people blab and force you to have to do the research. 9 times out of 10, such quotes are made up, distorted, misquoted, etc. It's not easy to deal with Protestants who approach discussions in that fashion because they've usually checked their reasoning skills at the door. Tell him he needs to produce the quote, with a link to the source, and he be willing to retract his comments if the context/quote turns out to be bogus.
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  #3  
Old Mar 27, '13, 2:15 pm
Big BC Big BC is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

This is the article he is referring to:

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Chri...Just-Life.aspx
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  #4  
Old Mar 27, '13, 2:20 pm
brb3 brb3 is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Google : JP2's quotes on Universal Salvation ....there u will find around 20-25.

I looked them over quickly, but didn't see any problems.
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  #5  
Old Mar 27, '13, 2:26 pm
brb3 brb3 is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Remember, Catholic means Universal......and the Church has taught from Day 1, Pentecost, that it is thru Christ's Church ....that the Great Commission went out, to effect the desire of Christ ...that All might be saved .. John 3:16, the invitation.

And, Christ promised to deliver all, ....that the Father gave Him. That not one be lost !!
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  #6  
Old Mar 27, '13, 2:38 pm
Big BC Big BC is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

I hear you. It looks like he has a problem with the following quotes in the article:

"The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes--the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life--will enter God's kingdom," John Paul said.

"All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this kingdom," he said.

If you notice the first paragraph of the article paraphrases what the Pope is saying, that " all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church."
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  #7  
Old Mar 27, '13, 2:47 pm
brb3 brb3 is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big BC View Post
I hear you. It looks like he has a problem with the following quotes in the article:

"The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes--the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life--will enter God's kingdom," John Paul said.

"All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this kingdom," he said.

If you notice the first paragraph of the article paraphrases what the Pope is saying, that " all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church."
YES, in case of Pre-Columbus introduction of Good News by Catholic Priests to the New World. The Church holds out possibility of Salvation for those Indians/Eskimos who lived lives c/w Beatitudes, treating neighbor as oneself !!

Some Indian Chiefs were very moral & readily converted to Christianity....showing they had been teaching morals to their clan. Chief Joseph & his Father...were two examples of exemplary Indian Chiefs !!
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  #8  
Old Mar 27, '13, 2:54 pm
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big BC View Post
This is the article he is referring to:

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Chri...Just-Life.aspx
There's nothing in the article that quotes the Pope asserting Universal Salvation or that one is saved by some means other than Christ.
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  #9  
Old Mar 27, '13, 3:08 pm
MaryT777 MaryT777 is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big BC View Post
Greetings fellow posters,

I have a Protestant friend who verges on anti-Catholicism. He states that the Church is heretical in its doctrine and anti-Biblical. More specifically, his focus is on a quote from John Paul II. I can't find the exact quote, but it was something in regards that one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation. In essence, that all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.

My questions are this: Is this church doctrine, since the Pope said it? If not, does this then break the rule of Papal Infallibility?

Confused Catholic

The CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church is online) Read it before you engage too much in dialogue with non Catholics. Then you can appoint to the official teaching.

The Pope has never said any such thing.


Check out the CCC on the doctrine of infallibility.[

Mary.
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  #10  
Old Mar 27, '13, 3:34 pm
michaelmas michaelmas is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryT777 View Post
The CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church is online) Read it before you engage too much in dialogue with non Catholics. Then you can appoint to the official teaching.

The Pope has never said any such thing.


Check out the CCC on the doctrine of infallibility.[

Mary.
There is a reading in the CCC that states something like that. I asked a Priest about Mormons and I said if they are good people doing good to others how can God condemn them? They do not believe in the trinity thus they don't believe in Jesus, are they saved? He gave me this CCC reading : I am not sure if this was the exact one but it reminds of JP2 quote you gave

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
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  #11  
Old Mar 27, '13, 4:21 pm
JohnTomHoc JohnTomHoc is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Everything a pope says, even if he says it repeatedly, does not become Church doctrine merely by the fact that he says it. Even a pope's personal theology is not necessarily infallible.

The difficulty with the papal statements since John XXIII is that they look at the matters of commonality rather than the matters of difference in trying to address people in other types of Christian communities -- they are never called "churches" if they are other than the Eastern churches -- and religions. This scandalizes many, who look at the instances where the the popes of the past half century have seemed to act or speak in a manner that suggests they believe in universal salvation. If they did, they could not possibly be popes, because universal salvation is contrary to all Catholic doctrine; but the fact that Jesus' redemptive death is universally available and that it is not refused in cases that only God knows about, is not contrary. It would be contrary if it's presumed that the universal availability means that there is no obligation, on the part of one learning that the Church teaches that it is the ark of salvation & the one Church will by Jesus, to do what he can to find out if that is true. If one knows the claim and is indifferent to it or merely resistant to it, makes excuses about it, if one prefers one's own religion or denomination out of grounds of personal convenience or unwillingness to do what's necessary to be saved, to inherit eternal life -- that is presumption. Unfortunately, I do think that there has been a certain imprudence in papal actions while pursuing ecumenical & interreligious relations which has given rise to doubt that this is the case -- witness the many people who think that the Church 'changed the teaching' with Vatican II. Many priests who lived through the Council adopted this as their stance, including some ex-missionary ones. I knew an old Jesuit who had been in Asian missions who said, in the '90s, 'thank God we dropped all that nonsense about converting the heathen.' It seems to me to be wishful thinking to deny that the hierarchy's practices in this vicinity have not been responsible for reducing the missionary ardor in the religious orders & in the priesthood generally.
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  #12  
Old Mar 27, '13, 6:57 pm
snarflemike snarflemike is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big BC View Post
Greetings fellow posters,

I have a Protestant friend who verges on anti-Catholicism. He states that the Church is heretical in its doctrine and anti-Biblical. More specifically, his focus is on a quote from John Paul II. I can't find the exact quote, but it was something in regards that one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation. In essence, that all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.
Apparently the actual statement referred to belief in both Jesus Christ AND the Catholic Church, so your Protestant friend should be happy, since he obviously doesn't believe in the Catholic Church.

What the statement doesn't say, is that "one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation". This is the age-old distinction between salvation through Jesus Christ (always and everywhere), and belief in Jesus Christ. And again, are we going to condemn all those throughout history and in this day and age who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Jesus Christ of the Gospels? Either God desires that all be saved, or he doesn't. If he does, then we have to account for all those people just mentioned.

For people who maintain this strict view, I ask why are they not in China or Pakistan right now, preaching the gospel to the unsaved?
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  #13  
Old Mar 27, '13, 7:23 pm
Third Day Third Day is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Quote:
=Big BC;10545051]I hear you. It looks like he has a problem with the following quotes in the article:

"The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes--the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life--will enter God's kingdom," John Paul said.
Seems that his problem is with scripture not with Pope John Paul II. That is what the Beatitudes say. But he should know that none of the above is possible without God's grace.

Quote:
"All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this kingdom," he said.
We are saved by grace and that is all the Pope is saying. It is possible that someone who does not know Christ BUT cooperates with God's grace can be saved. That is biblical. Anyone can be saved if they accept God's grace.

Ask him if he has a problem with this quote from Peter who, inspired by the Holy Spirit said:" "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." Acts 10:34-35

Clearly "every nation" would also refer to pagan nations where Christ is not known.
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  #14  
Old Mar 28, '13, 3:43 am
dmar198 dmar198 is online now
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big BC View Post
Greetings fellow posters,

I have a Protestant friend who verges on anti-Catholicism. He states that the Church is heretical in its doctrine and anti-Biblical. More specifically, his focus is on a quote from John Paul II. I can't find the exact quote, but it was something in regards that one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation. In essence, that all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.

My questions are this: Is this church doctrine, since the Pope said it? If not, does this then break the rule of Papal Infallibility?

Confused Catholic
Quote:
"The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes--the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life--will enter God's kingdom," John Paul said.

"All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this kingdom," he said.

If you notice the first paragraph of the article paraphrases what the Pope is saying, that " all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church."
First of all, the two quotes it pulls are not the same as the summary the article makes. The second actual quotation just says that other religions help build the Kingdom of God. The first quote says that those who live according to the Beatitudes will enter God's kingdom. That's not incorrect, especially when you consider how similar it is to Jesus' statement, "Those who keep the commandments shall enter eternal life," -- Matt. 19:17 -- and especially when you consider that one of the Beatitudes is explicitly about believing in Jesus: "Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matt. 5:11-12.

The fact is, Holy Father has always defended our doctrines, even the unpopular ones, including the doctrine of Hell. This shows up most explicitly in the Catechism, which he published, even amidst criticism of it due to its containing many unpopular doctrines, including Hell. See paragraphs 1033 to 1037. He also has encouraged the faithful to pray that no one be lost and all be won to Christ -- something which implies the possibility of BEING lost and NOT coming to Christ. Many of his statements talk about Death, Judgment, Heaven and Hell, and he was fond of quoting Our Lady of Fatima regarding Hell and how many souls go there. If you want to explore this more, a good post was made compiling all of this data here: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2011/...is-charge.html. But don't ever let anyone tell you that the Holy Father believed in Universal Salvation just because he prayed that no one goes to Hell. He knew quite well that some people would go there anyway.
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  #15  
Old Mar 28, '13, 8:50 am
Genesis315 Genesis315 is offline
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Default Re: Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

Catholics get accused of teaching it doesn't matter what you believe and also that only explicit Catholics can be saved. The truth is more complex.

See this allocution from John Paul II. In it, he explains the relationship between the necessary faith in Jesus and the idea that those who appear "outside" the Church might still be saved.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...9950531en.html
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