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  #91  
Old Apr 18, '13, 9:46 am
maryjk maryjk is online now
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by ComputerGeek25 View Post
And if the obit was not true, she has a case for defamation.
SHE gave the information for the obit. Her lesbian partner even asked if she was sure she wanted the information published and according to her statement, she was sure.
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  #92  
Old Apr 18, '13, 10:00 am
ComputerGeek25 ComputerGeek25 is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
Child pornography is a criminal offense. If the church school is going to go after one, they must go after all.....infidelity comes to mind, and I find it hard to believe that there have been no cases at ANY school in a 19 year period.
It will be interesting to see how far this school is willing to take this, since they are clearly in violation of a local ordinance. In order to defend their position, they are going to spend some big bucks.
The difference is that the allegations of infidelity was not printed in the paper.
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  #93  
Old Apr 18, '13, 10:21 am
oldcelt oldcelt is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by Cider View Post
Nope. It's a private school, not a public one. They can set their own admissions requirements just as they can set their own standards for teachers.
That is true only to a degree. If they want the diplomas they issue to be recognized, they have to adhere to the same standards as any other school. For example, I cannot teach at Elk County Catholic High School on anything but an emergency basis, because I am not a certified teacher in the State of Pennsylvania.
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  #94  
Old Apr 18, '13, 10:22 am
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Nope. It's a private school, not a public one. They can set their own admissions requirements just as they can set their own standards for teachers.
Undoubtedly someone will try to take this to court. That's not such a bad thing. Let's see politicians explain why it's just fine and dandy for the Baptist schools and colleges to fire anyone found to be drinking, smoking cigarettes or cursing but it's not ok for a Catholic school to fire someone for living in an immoral coupled relationship. The incursions into the rights of religious institutes won't stop until this is settled in the courts.

If this woman (or more likely some "gay" activist group) takes this to court and wins, this means that no morals clause is enforceable for any employer - with or without a contract. That is a huge deal in US employment law.
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  #95  
Old Apr 18, '13, 10:37 am
oldcelt oldcelt is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
Undoubtedly someone will try to take this to court. That's not such a bad thing. Let's see politicians explain why it's just fine and dandy for the Baptist schools and colleges to fire anyone found to be drinking, smoking cigarettes or cursing but it's not ok for a Catholic school to fire someone for living in an immoral coupled relationship. The incursions into the rights of religious institutes won't stop until this is settled in the courts.

If this woman (or more likely some "gay" activist group) takes this to court and wins, this means that no morals clause is enforceable for any employer - with or without a contract. That is a huge deal in US employment law.
I think a case like this will serve to define just how much control any employer has on an employees life off the clock. If an employer want 24-7 control....they'd better up the compensation.
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With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan..
Abraham Lincoln
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  #96  
Old Apr 18, '13, 10:58 am
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
I think a case like this will serve to define just how much control any employer has on an employees life off the clock. If an employer want 24-7 control....they'd better up the compensation.
From an HRM standpoint, it's not about control. One of the characteristics that employers desire of employees is good judgement/character. If the courts say that "off the clock" activity is irrelevant, this would make it impossible for an employer to use character or even evidence of a clean criminal history as a condition of employment.
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“Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights -- for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture -- is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.” Saint John Paul II

"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
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  #97  
Old Apr 18, '13, 11:30 am
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Cider Cider is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
That is true only to a degree. If they want the diplomas they issue to be recognized, they have to adhere to the same standards as any other school. For example, I cannot teach at Elk County Catholic High School on anything but an emergency basis, because I am not a certified teacher in the State of Pennsylvania.
Different states have different rules. Some states do not require teacher certification to teach in private schools.
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  #98  
Old Apr 18, '13, 11:49 am
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by Cider View Post
Different states have different rules. Some states do not require teacher certification to teach in private schools.
In Texas, private schools can set whatever standards they want. In the public schools, high school teachers must have certification but in my kids' Catholic high school, they are more interested in the teachers educational background in the subject area. Therefore, they hire almost exclusively teachers with an MA or above in their content area but a certificate is less relevant.
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“Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights -- for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture -- is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.” Saint John Paul II

"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
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  #99  
Old Apr 18, '13, 12:25 pm
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
Undoubtedly someone will try to take this to court. That's not such a bad thing. Let's see politicians explain why it's just fine and dandy for the Baptist schools and colleges to fire anyone found to be drinking, smoking cigarettes or cursing but it's not ok for a Catholic school to fire someone for living in an immoral coupled relationship. The incursions into the rights of religious institutes won't stop until this is settled in the courts.

If this woman (or more likely some "gay" activist group) takes this to court and wins, this means that no morals clause is enforceable for any employer - with or without a contract. That is a huge deal in US employment law.
Yes, the very fact of having civil laws which prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation means that they will be in conflict with Catholic institutions. If the school loses this case, it means that freedom to practice one's religion will continue to be lost. The state is telling Catholics, "you can have your doctrine in your house of worship but nowhere else. Outside of church, you have to follow OUR religion."
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  #100  
Old Apr 18, '13, 1:17 pm
oldcelt oldcelt is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
From an HRM standpoint, it's not about control. One of the characteristics that employers desire of employees is good judgement/character. If the courts say that "off the clock" activity is irrelevant, this would make it impossible for an employer to use character or even evidence of a clean criminal history as a condition of employment.
I think you are stretching the point more than just a bit. Criminal conduct is quite different from what someone does with another consenting adult in the privacy of their own home. Further, if someone wants to go to their local watering hole on their time off, or attend a film or theatrical production that some might find offensive, or join a particular political party, or......it is nobody's business but their own. So long as their behavior is legal; and does not impact their job performance I can see no legitimate reason for anyone to interfere or penalize them in the work place.

What surprises me in discussions like this is that many of the same people who rail against the nanny state are the ones who say we should be able to control people's conduct 24-7. I am not identifying anyone in particular, but I think you can understand my point.
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  #101  
Old Apr 18, '13, 2:31 pm
JMJSHJ JMJSHJ is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
I think you are stretching the point more than just a bit. Criminal conduct is quite different from what someone does with another consenting adult in the privacy of their own home. Further, if someone wants to go to their local watering hole on their time off, or attend a film or theatrical production that some might find offensive, or join a particular political party, or......it is nobody's business but their own. So long as their behavior is legal; and does not impact their job performance I can see no legitimate reason for anyone to interfere or penalize them in the work place.

What surprises me in discussions like this is that many of the same people who rail against the nanny state are the ones who say we should be able to control people's conduct 24-7. I am not identifying anyone in particular, but I think you can understand my point.
Emphasis mine

The fact that she was living in a relationship that is clearly prohibited by Catholic teaching would impact her performance as a Catholic teacher. She is living a lie. Could there be others who are doing the same? Sure, but we don't know who.
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  #102  
Old Apr 18, '13, 2:48 pm
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by oldcelt View Post
I think you are stretching the point more than just a bit. Criminal conduct is quite different from what someone does with another consenting adult in the privacy of their own home.
Not in the example I gave. In fact the criminal activity I used in my example was "in the privacy of their own home" while the woman in the OP is conducting hers in public.

Quote:
Further, if someone wants to go to their local watering hole on their time off, or attend a film or theatrical production that some might find offensive, or join a particular political party, or......it is nobody's business but their own.
Going to a bar is one of the activities frequently prohibited in morals clauses - not for Catholic instituations but for some Protestant ones.

Quote:
So long as their behavior is legal; and does not impact their job performance I can see no legitimate reason for anyone to interfere or penalize them in the work place.
How do you know it does not impact job performance? Example: the Assistant Principal of one of our local public schools went to a Bachelorette party and was photographed drunk and dancing on the tables (litterally). Now, of course since it's a public school, there is no enforceable morals clause. But she lost all credibilty, she was ridiculed in the press and the subject of several parent protests that were a major distraction to the administration of the school.

In the OPs case, once this became public, she no longer has any moral authority as a Catholic school teacher and it negatively impacts the ability of the school to impart the faith to the students in an orthodox manner.

Quote:
What surprises me in discussions like this is that many of the same people who rail against the nanny state are the ones who say we should be able to control people's conduct 24-7. I am not identifying anyone in particular, but I think you can understand my point
What surprises me is that you don't seem to understand the difference between "controlling" and allowing. Once a person accepts a job and signs an agreement to conduct him/herself in a manner consistent with that job, both sides should abide by the agreement.
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"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
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  #103  
Old Apr 18, '13, 2:54 pm
oldcelt oldcelt is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by JMJSHJ View Post
Emphasis mine

The fact that she was living in a relationship that is clearly prohibited by Catholic teaching would impact her performance as a Catholic teacher. She is living a lie. Could there be others who are doing the same? Sure, but we don't know who.
The main point of the teacher in question is that the school made it a point to find out about her life after an anonymous source mentioned a very nondescript passage in an obituary. If such oversight was applied universally, it is her contention that the school would have little or no staff.
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With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan..
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  #104  
Old Apr 18, '13, 3:06 pm
oldcelt oldcelt is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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Originally Posted by Corki View Post
Not in the example I gave. In fact the criminal activity I used in my example was "in the privacy of their own home" while the woman in the OP is conducting hers in public.



Going to a bar is one of the activities frequently prohibited in morals clauses - not for Catholic instituations but for some Protestant ones.



How do you know it does not impact job performance? Example: the Assistant Principal of one of our local public schools went to a Bachelorette party and was photographed drunk and dancing on the tables (litterally). Now, of course since it's a public school, there is no enforceable morals clause. But she lost all credibilty, she was ridiculed in the press and the subject of several parent protests that were a major distraction to the administration of the school.

In the OPs case, once this became public, she no longer has any moral authority as a Catholic school teacher and it negatively impacts the ability of the school to impart the faith to the students in an orthodox manner.



What surprises me is that you don't seem to understand the difference between "controlling" and allowing. Once a person accepts a job and signs an agreement to conduct him/herself in a manner consistent with that job, both sides should abide by the agreement.
I oppose this type of big brother behavior by an organization, regardless of their affiliation. This just happens to be at a Catholic school.
Your contention that: "she no longer has any moral authority as a Catholic school teacher and it negatively impacts the ability of the school to impart the faith to the students in an orthodox manner," is, if you'll forgive me...another stretch. The woman is a physical education teacher, not a theology teacher. I think you are dramatically underestimating the ability of students to distinguish the difference...particularly since it was not the teacher who made an issue of this.
I don't quite understand your point between controlling and allowing, and since none of us are privy to the actual morality contract, if in fact a written document exists, it is very hard to comment.
I think my opposition to contracts that attempt to control an adult's legal behavior on their own time is apparent. I will add, as more of these stories hit the press, I believe that religious school will find it difficult to recruit top-flight teachers....not to mention the fact that they generally pay substantially less.
This was, IMHO, a very bad fight for this school to pick. They lost a dedicated 19 year employee and stand to lose a great deal financially. Further, this case may put an end to all 24 hour morality contracts, which would please me greatly.
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  #105  
Old Apr 18, '13, 3:17 pm
ComputerGeek25 ComputerGeek25 is offline
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Default Re: Fired Watterson teacher: Morality clause could be used against others

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The main point of the teacher in question is that the school made it a point to find out about her life after an anonymous source mentioned a very nondescript passage in an obituary. If such oversight was applied universally, it is her contention that the school would have little or no staff.
I would presume that the school did a proper investigation into the matter before they would fire her or any other teacher.
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