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  #16  
Old Jul 19, '13, 3:20 pm
philv philv is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

Well, this was weird. Looks like there was a Greek version of Genesis which threw in mysticism, at least for Gen 3:24. My NAB commentary says this:
Gen 3:24, "The above rendering is based on the ancient Greek version; that of the current Hebrew is, When he expelled the man, he settled, east of the garden of Eden, the cherubim.

But when a bible says it was translated from the original texts, I'm surprised they still have Greek influences in Genesis (NAB), aka "When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life."

At least the commentator in the NAB is sharing what it really says in the ancient languages. So far it's been pretty good on that.
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  #17  
Old Jul 19, '13, 3:21 pm
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livingwordunity livingwordunity is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by philv View Post
Since the Jews didn't believe in the Trinity back then (obviously), writing "us" implied something else then.
The Jewish leaders had a poor understanding of the Scriptures just as they didn't seem to understand that the Messiah was to come first as the Suffering Servant. They expected the Messiah to be someone who would conquer their enemies for them. Jesus will come as the Judge, but that's when he returns at the end of time.
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  #18  
Old Jul 19, '13, 3:56 pm
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livingwordunity livingwordunity is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by philv View Post
Well, this was weird. Looks like there was a Greek version of Genesis which threw in mysticism, at least for Gen 3:24. My NAB commentary says this:
Gen 3:24, "The above rendering is based on the ancient Greek version; that of the current Hebrew is, When he expelled the man, he settled, east of the garden of Eden, the cherubim.

But when a bible says it was translated from the original texts, I'm surprised they still have Greek influences in Genesis (NAB), aka "When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life."

At least the commentator in the NAB is sharing what it really says in the ancient languages. So far it's been pretty good on that.
The NAB translation of the scripture verses is passable, but the NAB commentary borders on heretical at times. An example is how in the NAB the Blessed Virgin Mary is conspicuously omitted from the commentary about the woman of Revelation 12 even though the woman of Revelation 12 was specifically referenced as Our Lady by Pope Pius XII in his infallible apostolic constitution Munificentissimus Deus (Defining the Dogma of the Assumption).
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  #19  
Old Jul 19, '13, 5:00 pm
VeritasLuxMea VeritasLuxMea is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

If it's a hint to the trinity, then... why? Why a hint? What is the purpose of dropping a hint? Is God the Riddler from Batman or something? What do we gain from that? What does He gain from playing that game? What kind of ridiculous, petty behavior is that?

Further, how would this hint writing even work in the first place? I mean, you've got a human author writing this, yes? So what, he knows about the trinity, but he isn't going to tell us? Or he doesn't know about the trinity, but he doesn't notice how terrible his grammar is? No one was confused when they kept transcribing these words? No one thought to adjust "Us" to "My"?

The answer is hit-you-on-the-head obvious: the authors were polytheistic.

I'm not a linguist, so I don't know about the royal we stuff, but unless a bunch of credible linguists intervene, then I'm going to have to assume that's just a way to retroactively edit the text.
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  #20  
Old Jul 19, '13, 5:25 pm
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Skye_Ariel Skye_Ariel is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by cargau View Post
The Trinitarian dogma was not defined until long after Genesis was written. The truth is, monotheism was not completely accepted in the beginning. The Jewish people were likely in bondage when Genesis was written. No doubt they were influenced by the other near eastern cultures that preached a theology of polytheism.

Also, consider that those who lived in that part of the world were agrarian. There was no irrigation systems and they depended on god's like Baal, the god of fertility including rain.

I can assure you that the Scripture writers had no knowledge of the Trinity. Remember, the fullness of revelation is still not complete, but the greatest of revelation surrounds Jesus of Nazareth. The writers of Genesis had not the benefit of this revelation.
God inspired the writers of Genesis to use "us" and "our" even though at the time they did not know why. You are forgetting that the written word was inspired by God.
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  #21  
Old Jul 19, '13, 5:29 pm
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Skye_Ariel Skye_Ariel is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea View Post
If it's a hint to the trinity, then... why? Why a hint? What is the purpose of dropping a hint? Is God the Riddler from Batman or something? What do we gain from that? What does He gain from playing that game? What kind of ridiculous, petty behavior is that?

Further, how would this hint writing even work in the first place? I mean, you've got a human author writing this, yes? So what, he knows about the trinity, but he isn't going to tell us? Or he doesn't know about the trinity, but he doesn't notice how terrible his grammar is? No one was confused when they kept transcribing these words? No one thought to adjust "Us" to "My"?

The answer is hit-you-on-the-head obvious: the authors were polytheistic.

I'm not a linguist, so I don't know about the royal we stuff, but unless a bunch of credible linguists intervene, then I'm going to have to assume that's just a way to retroactively edit the text.
The authors were inspired by God to use "us" and "our" even though at the time the authors didn't know why. God would not let His Word be tainted by spill over beliefs in other gods and from pagan beliefs.
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  #22  
Old Jul 19, '13, 5:45 pm
philv philv is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by Skye_Ariel View Post
God inspired the writers of Genesis to use "us" and "our" even though at the time they did not know why. You are forgetting that the written word was inspired by God.
Very true. I just thought of something. Genesis was written at a later time (I don't know if the church believes Moses wrote it). So, there might have been more communication with God at a later time before it was written. So maybe using "us" was already understood before writing it down. Genesis has 6 editions, as well. I'm probably going to get lost if I keep thinking, but yeah, it's inspired by God and thus it was there for the Jews, kind of like the same thing when God said "... He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." (Gen 3:15). It was thought of humans being enemies to snakes, but later theology saw it as Jesus Christ. So, I guess it's all the same thing, all inspired by God and it was revealed.

"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me." John 5:39
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Last edited by philv; Jul 19, '13 at 6:01 pm.
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  #23  
Old Jul 19, '13, 5:57 pm
The Serpent The Serpent is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

The "us" in Genesis is the Trinity speaking, in my opinion. There is an interesting aspect of the Genesis genealogy that may be hinting at the Trinity. In Genesis 5:7 Seth has a son Enos; in Genesis 5:18 - 24 Jared begot Henoch, who was taken by God. Finally in Genesis 4:17 Cain is said to have a son Henoch as well, and Cain names his city after him! These three names seem very similiar to each other. I wonder if it is being used as a veiled reference to the Trinity, for Henoch was taken by God, and there are three varieties of Henoch, Enos, Enoch depending on your transalation!
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  #24  
Old Jul 19, '13, 9:42 pm
VeritasLuxMea VeritasLuxMea is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by Skye_Ariel View Post
The authors were inspired by God to use "us" and "our" even though at the time the authors didn't know why. God would not let His Word be tainted by spill over beliefs in other gods and from pagan beliefs.
You can believe that all you want, but:

-You can't explain why God would inspire such a thing. Can you?
-More importantly, you don't have a basis in reality for making that claim. Do you? Why should we believe that "God would not let his Word be tainted", other than your mere belief that He would not?

(Also, Jeremiah 8:8?)
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  #25  
Old Jul 20, '13, 11:53 am
cargau cargau is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by Skye_Ariel View Post
God inspired the writers of Genesis to use "us" and "our" even though at the time they did not know why. You are forgetting that the written word was inspired by God.
I am quite aware that the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. But what exactly does that mean? Does it mean that the Holy Spirit whispered into the ears of the Scripture authors and they wrote the verses word for word? Kind of like the Angel Gabriel dictating the Koran to Mohammed....

The bible writers were inspired to write, the Church was inspired to develop a canon and assemble the books and each of us can be inspired when we take time to read.

I believe that like the Church, Scripture has both a divine and a human reality. Since, as I suggest, it is not completely divine, we need to be open to the fact that the human aspect had certain limitations. Those limitations could be in the form of a limited or incomplete understanding of human, scientific or theological matters.

It's not important that every historical or scientific statement is in compliance with our present (more advanced) understanding. What is vital is the theological message that is so necessary for our salvation.

So the "we, us" may (and likely does) indicate an imperfect understanding of God's own nature. Coming to know God is an ongoing process that will never be fully complete until we are with Him in heaven. The thousand of years that have passed since Genesis was penned, have allowed us to come into a deeper knowledge of God as He continues to reveal Himself to his people, especially through the world's experience with Jesus of Nazareth.
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  #26  
Old Jul 20, '13, 3:38 pm
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melekali melekali is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

In the Hebrew there is no "us".
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  #27  
Old Jul 20, '13, 5:58 pm
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melekali melekali is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

DRC 3:22. And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now therefore lest perhaps he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

Gen 3:22 ויאמרH559 יהוהH3068 אלהיםH430 הןH2005 האדםH120 היהH1961 כאחדH259 ממנוH4480 לדעתH3045 טובH2896 ורעH7451 ועתהH6258 פןH6435 ישׁלחH7971 ידוH3027 ולקחH3947 גםH1571 מעץH6086 החייםH2416 ואכלH398 וחיH2425 לעלם׃H5769

Literally: Say the Lord God, "Behold! Man become united part of knowing good evil at this time removal send away hand gather tree alive eat live concealed."
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  #28  
Old Jul 20, '13, 6:07 pm
Timothysis Timothysis is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by Skye_Ariel View Post
God would not let His Word be tainted by spill over beliefs in other gods and from pagan beliefs.
The story of Noah is based on the ancient Mesopotamian tale of Gilgamesh, a story well know to the different cultures throughout the region. And then there's the fragment about the Nihilum. If fact, there is much in Genesis that can trace its roots to pagan beliefs. It isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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  #29  
Old Jul 20, '13, 6:42 pm
migueltojose migueltojose is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by philv View Post
I've always wondered who "us" meant in Genesis 1:26, 3:22. First, I thought it may have meant talking to the Trinity, or to the angels. I digged in further. I'm curious what you think on these notes, and seeing if the author used what they thought in the time with mysticism and assimilated it to the real God, Yahweh, to teach theology.
Nicene Creed regarding the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

The Father - "..maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.."
The Son - "..born of the Father before all ages.. ..through Him all things were made.."
The Holy Spirit - "..the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.. ..who has spoken through the prophets.."

Regarding angels - aren't there something like nine orders of angels and the Archangels are something like third from the bottom.. I really think we underappreciate and/or underestimate the higher orders of angels and can't possibly comprehend much about how they may or may not interact with God the Father.
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  #30  
Old Jul 20, '13, 9:57 pm
philv philv is offline
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Default Re: Gen 1:26 on "Let 'us' make man in our own image"

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Originally Posted by cargau View Post
I am quite aware that the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. But what exactly does that mean? Does it mean that the Holy Spirit whispered into the ears of the Scripture authors and they wrote the verses word for word? Kind of like the Angel Gabriel dictating the Koran to Mohammed....

The bible writers were inspired to write, the Church was inspired to develop a canon and assemble the books and each of us can be inspired when we take time to read.

I believe that like the Church, Scripture has both a divine and a human reality. Since, as I suggest, it is not completely divine, we need to be open to the fact that the human aspect had certain limitations. Those limitations could be in the form of a limited or incomplete understanding of human, scientific or theological matters.

It's not important that every historical or scientific statement is in compliance with our present (more advanced) understanding. What is vital is the theological message that is so necessary for our salvation.

So the "we, us" may (and likely does) indicate an imperfect understanding of God's own nature. Coming to know God is an ongoing process that will never be fully complete until we are with Him in heaven. The thousand of years that have passed since Genesis was penned, have allowed us to come into a deeper knowledge of God as He continues to reveal Himself to his people, especially through the world's experience with Jesus of Nazareth.
Yeah, it's a good point on how scripture is being inspired, as there are multiple theories and most were rejected by the Church.

I was reading an article from the NAB bible by Eugene H. Maly (I assume he's a priest). There's a theory that's not accepted called 'divine dictation', which is where the Holy Spirit directs your writing to avoid any error. He writes, "The theory has been rejected by the Church for two good reasons: because it implies the notion of a God who does not respect the freedom of his creatures, and because it cannot account for the very obvious differences of the biblical writings - differences that can be adequately explained by the different backgrounds, styles, and purposes of the human authors."

They also reject the theory "subsequent approbation" which once scriptures was completed God approved of its use.

Since we know the authors have used their own words ("like fire burning in my heart" Jer 20:9), we know they are in control of their writing. The more accepted theory is being inspired by God with the words of man using his talents and resources. Being that the case, man wrote "us", which is inspired by God, yes, but in the words of man. We still know Christ said this, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me." John 5:39. So, although written by man while inspired by God, it still avoided error because it testified about him. It's a great article and worth reading, titled "The Purpose of the Bible."

I liked the two words "imperfect understanding" of the word "us". Interesting how the author knew it was plural, but the author doesn't try to explain it. Reminds me at RCIA, the teacher joked, "We know the Trinity exists, but we're not going to try and explain it." That's humble - it's very mysterious, but we still only have a human understanding of it, and all we need to know right now. Even now, some Christians still struggle with the Trinity concept, and I know of one church that totally disregarded the Trinity. In the same way though for those who don't understand it, the author knew it's still not singular, so perhaps the author wrote it in plural based on his imperfect understanding. And of course, God reveals the Trinity later on to give a better understanding.

Last edited by philv; Jul 20, '13 at 10:13 pm.
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