Freedom of speech? Racism? Or reasonable?? - Page 2

mystified · #16 Sep 12, '06, 10:41 am

Concern for terrorism is legitimate, but some people read strange messages into things and become offended easily. A woman tapped me on the shoulder and outrightly told me she was offended by a depiction of the Virgen de Guadalupe on my T-shirt, and an armed guard at our local courthouse was offended by a quarter-inch-tall Scout emblem on my lapel, saying that it was a weapon of terrorism. Go figure.

stellina · #17 Sep 12, '06, 12:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWM

Oh, well, as long as *you* don't mind, I guess it's ok.

I'm sure you could find some black people in the 50s who were happy with the way things were, too. And probably some slaves a century before.

Mike

You have a lot of nerve to compare this situation to the truly awful things that black people have experienced, i.e. being denied liberty and basic freedoms, shelter, a decent education, the right to make a living, or being forced to sit in the back of buses or in separate areas of restaurants. It is insulting to them to put this guy on the same level just because he wore a shirt with an inflammatory message to a crowded airport. I am not a racist for saying so and I resent your implication that I am.

I never made a blanket statement that racial or ethnic discrimination is acceptable. If I wanted to play the victim as much as so many others do, I could too because I am also being judged on my looks. The sad fact of life today is that certain evil people have jeopardized the security of the entire world and something has to be done about it.

geezerbob · #18 Sep 12, '06, 4:26 pm

Common sense dictates that you would not wear a KKK shirt to an NAACP meeting. On a less serious level, try sitting on the home side of a football stadium while wearing the colors of the visiting team. Considering that four airliners were hijacked and crashed by Arab men, would it really be wise to wear a shirt with Arabic symbols on it while trying to board a plane in a country where most people would recognize the symbols as Arabic but would not have a clue as to their meaning?

**rlg94086** · #19 Sep 12, '06, 4:46 pm

Come on now Bob...are you telling that they wouldn't say "welcome friend, have a seat" to you at an NAACP meeting if you showed up with a KKK shirt? I mean after all, we do have freedom of expression. I'm sure they would honor that.

The sports thing reminded me of a friend of mine who noted that the Avalanche fans were yelling "Red Wings S***" at a hockey game where the Red Wings weren't even playing. He wears his jersey to the Avalanche/Red Wing games and gets popcorn thrown at him, people swearing at him, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geezerbob

Common sense dictates that you would not wear a KKK shirt to an NAACP meeting. On a less serious level, try sitting on the home side of a football stadium while wearing the colors of the visiting team. Considering that four airliners were hijacked and crashed by Arab men, would it really be wise to wear a shirt with Arabic symbols on it while trying to board a plane in a country where most people would recognize the symbols as Arabic but would not have a clue as to their meaning?

MikeWM · #20 Sep 12, '06, 4:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stellina

[font=Palatino Linotype]You have a lot of nerve to compare this situation to the truly awful things that black people have experienced, i.e. being denied liberty and basic freedoms, shelter, a decent education, the right to make a living, or being forced to sit in the back of buses or in separate areas of restaurants.

I'm not comparing. I am simply saying that the argument 'well I don't mind, so it's ok' isn't a good enough argument.

Quote:

It is insulting to them to put this guy on the same level just because he wore a shirt with an inflammatory message to a crowded airport. I am not a racist for saying so and I resent your implication that I am.

I didn't imply that you are, and I'm surprised you could get that I did out of my post.

Quote:

I never made a blanket statement that racial or ethnic discrimination is acceptable.

Again, I never said you did.

Quote:

The sad fact of life today is that certain evil people have jeopardized the security of the entire world and something has to be done about it.

Unfortunately, so far, in 'something MUST be done' mode, we've done entirely the wrong things. You have to do the right thing, as well as just doing some thing.

Mike

MikeWM · #21 Sep 12, '06, 4:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by geezerbob

Common sense dictates that you would not wear a KKK shirt to an NAACP meeting. On a less serious level, try sitting on the home side of a football stadium while wearing the colors of the visiting team. Considering that four airliners were hijacked and crashed by Arab men, would it really be wise to wear a shirt with Arabic symbols on it while trying to board a plane in a country where most people would recognize the symbols as Arabic but would not have a clue as to their meaning?

No, it's not the best plan. Nevertheless, I don't think he should have been stopped from flying for it. There needs to be a line somewhere, but that's not the place.

Mike

MikeWM · #22 Sep 12, '06, 4:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlg94086

He wears his jersey to the Avalanche/Red Wing games and gets popcorn thrown at him, people swearing at him, etc.

Understandable. They don't stop him entering the stadium and watching the game though, do they?

Mike

**rlg94086** · #23 Sep 12, '06, 6:14 pm

Wasn't my point Mike...Bob's point just reminded me of a friend.

I'm guessing, however, that the guy with the KKK shirt wouldn't be let in to the NAACP meeting though. Of course, who wants a bloody, dead body stinking up the meeting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWM

Understandable. They don't stop him entering the stadium and watching the game though, do they?

Mike

MikeWM · #24 Sep 12, '06, 6:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlg94086

Wasn't my point Mike...Bob's point just reminded me of a friend.

Fair enough. Going back to earlier, the same probably applies to someone wearing a Yankee uniform at a Red Sox game

But anyway...

Quote:

I'm guessing, however, that the guy with the KKK shirt wouldn't be let in to the NAACP meeting though. Of course, who wants a bloody, dead body stinking up the meeting?

Oh, indeed. I think that crosses the line. As would someone trying to get on a plane with a t-shirt of the WTC burning. This seems very different to me though, because it wasn't based on the position the person had, but on not knowing the position. If the guy on the door of the NAACP meeting *didn't know who the KKK were*, he ought not to stop him coming in *just in case* the KKK happen to be a racist nasty organisation, because he'd have to be stopping anyone with something on their t-shirt that he didn't understand.

Mike

Gottle of Geer · #25 Sep 12, '06, 9:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWM

Fair enough. Going back to earlier, the same probably applies to someone wearing a Yankee uniform at a Red Sox game

But anyway...

Oh, indeed. I think that crosses the line. As would someone trying to get on a plane with a t-shirt of the WTC burning. This seems very different to me though, because it wasn't based on the position the person had, but on not knowing the position. If the guy on the door of the NAACP meeting *didn't know who the KKK were*, he ought not to stop him coming in *just in case* the KKK happen to be a racist nasty organisation, because he'd have to be stopping anyone with something on their t-shirt that he didn't understand.

Mike

## On a similar note: from the UK, a lesson in how to become a criminal - without even trying ##

a priori · #26 Sep 13, '06, 12:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWM

The next 'symbol' will be a type of watch, or a Yankees baseball cap, or a hairstyle.

You can argue about ambiguous arabic phrases on T-shirts but sharing an airplane with a Yankees fan? That's where I draw the line!!!

MikeWM · #27 Sep 13, '06, 3:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gottle of Geer

## On a similar note: from the UK, a lesson in how to become a criminal - without even trying ##

While pretty much all the newspapers reported this 'story', it basically wasn't true.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/correction...865546,00.html

Quote:

In two articles in the Sport section we incorrectly asserted that the Celtic goalkeeper Artur Boruc had been cautioned by the Crown Office for "crossing himself" (page 7, August 31), or "blessing himself" (page 5, September 2) during a game against Rangers on February 12. We failed to note that the Crown Office had been at pains to point out that Boruc was cautioned not about "blessing himself" but about other alleged gestures towards the crowd. He was cautioned after the procurator fiscal, having reviewed all the circumstances, decided that criminal proceedings were not necessary. The letter to Boruc from the procurator fiscal made no mention whatsoever of the act of blessing himself.

Mike

Gottle of Geer · #28 Sep 13, '06, 11:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWM

While pretty much all the newspapers reported this 'story', it basically wasn't true.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/correction...865546,00.html

Mike

## Many thanks for the correction

- I hadn't heard about that; I wonder whether the Grauniad was the only paper to make it. ##

**Friar David, O.Carm** · #29 Sep 13, '06, 11:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by FightingFat

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5297822.stm

An architect of Iraqi descent has said he was forced to remove a T-shirt that bore the words "We will not be silent" before boarding a flight at New York.
Raed Jarrar said security officials warned him his clothing was offensive after he checked in for a JetBlue flight to California on 12 August.

Mr Jarrar said he was shocked such an action could be taken in the US.

US transport officials are conducting an inquiry after a complaint from the US Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.

JetBlue said it was also investigating the incident but a spokeswoman said: "We're not clear exactly what happened."

Our Freedom of Speech only gives us the right to not have our political speech censored by the government. It does not give us the right to say (or do) what ever we want where ever we want.

Private institutions can censor our speech, they can also discriminate as long as that discrimination are not based on what has been listed as protected categories (like race and religion).

What we wear is not such a protected category, after all many institutions will not service you if you are not wearing a shirt and shoes.

I do not think what this airline did was good but they have the right to do it. Just like they do when they charge for two seats for overweight passengers, its not discrimination against them.