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  #16  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:03 pm
Roman_Catholic Roman_Catholic is offline
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Default Re: Need your help

Hey I have a question, I wanted to send something short and sweet like he tried to do I was thinking about this:

Quote:
According to the Bible what is the pillar and bulwark of the truth?
Ok so everyone know I am refering to 1 Tim 3 :15

Quote:
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
What if he comes back and says that 1 Tim 3:15 is refering to Jesus as the pillar and foundation of truth? Because it says the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Secondly what if he comes back that there is no way to tell that the Catholic Church is that Church? Like if he says, "ok which church then"? Or he says that all christians make up the "church"

I just want to have my bases covered if I send that.

Thanks
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  #17  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:17 pm
SemperJase SemperJase is offline
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Default Re: Need your help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
What if he comes back and says that 1 Tim 3:15 is refering to Jesus as the pillar and foundation of truth? Because it says the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
Thanks
Then you know he is being willfully ignorant. Paul wasn't saying "know how to behave in Jesus". He said know how to behave in the house of God - which is the church.

As for the claim that the church is all christians, Jesus only founded one church. It certainly isn't one that was founded in the last century.

Then again, you might not want to engage him in much debate. His history is well established. I suggest your answers be brief and concise and let it go. Trust the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to him but be ready with a defense of your faith as Peter tells us.
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  #18  
Old Sep 16, '06, 9:27 pm
Roman_Catholic Roman_Catholic is offline
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Default Re: Need your help

excellent thanks
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"I will bring you to the land not of questions but of answers,
and you shall see the face of God."

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C.S. Lewis The Great Divorce
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  #19  
Old Sep 16, '06, 11:01 pm
Roman_Catholic Roman_Catholic is offline
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Hey guys here is what he wrote, its alittle over my head maybe someone could help? thanks:

Quote:
Interesting isn't it?, If no passage of scripture is of ones own interpretation then who's is it? If the word of God is not His personal love letter to you who is It written too? It is 2 Peter not 1st and His word to us is in this scripture is simple like a personal relationship with the living God is. That no prophesy or written revelation of scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation or will, but men of old wrote and spoke as they were carried or lead by the Spirit of the living God within them. The scripture is telling us that they were the pen in Gods hand Amen?
Now will you try to make more of this. Again the idea conveyed is that just as the wind controls the sails of a boat, so also the breath of God controlled the writers of the bible. The end result was exactly what God intended. You would do good to do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim. 2:15. Jesus said " I have much to say to
you.......But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes he will guide you into all truth. John 16:13. To the one who is surrendered to the Spirit of the living God, He the Holy Spirit is the one that teaches us. Through His word the bible He teaches us. Teachers of men can help with interpretation if they are correct in their interpretation but God is the one that teaches. His Spirit is the one who reveals truth to us. Interpretations of the Bible are like walking through a door and behind that door is another door and behind that another it goes deeper and deeper as the Spirit will
instruct....Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of
God. Heb.11:1.......For the word of God is alive and active not dead pages in a book..Able to divide between soul and spirit, bone and marrow it judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Heb. 4:12. So to say that no passage of scripture
is of ones own interpretation is in error of the scripture it's self. Is
that not proper context? Be like the Bereans and study for yourself. Don't just take any mans word on it. God will show you Him self if you truly want to know deep in your heart.God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. That is where revelation or revealing of His word or scriptures comes from.
Amen
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"I will bring you to the land not of questions but of answers,
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  #20  
Old Sep 17, '06, 12:24 am
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Default Re: Need your help

These are about the only parts that are really worthy of response. The rest is just more rhetorical preaching.

One reason that this seems to go over your head is that it's essentially nonsense.

The interpretations that he offers are largely poorly expressed disjointed thoughts that actually contradict his own case. (He would HATE talking to me, but he'd very likely say that I rely on human reason and not the fullness of the Spirit. The problem there is that I was a deacon of the Assembly of God and I am filled with the Holy Spirit, have spoken in tongues both as prophecy and prayer, and still today excercise some prophetic gifts of the Spirit. )
Quote:
Through His word the bible He teaches us.
No argument from Catholics, just that we are smart enough to include the writings of the early church and the rest of Christianity's 2,000 years history in order to insure that we "rightly divide the word of truth" I am forever telling other catholics to follow this verse of St. Paul's 2nd letter to Timothy (2:15) which reads, "Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." One problem though. Did ya notice that St. Paul doesn't tell Timothy to only study the scriptures? I discovered this myself in reading my Bible.
Quote:
Teachers of men can help with interpretation if they are correct in their interpretation but God is the one that teaches.
This is where he really starts getting into theological trouble. He offers no measure as to how to discern when any given teacher is correct. Who is the authority for this? Him? What makes his interpretation more valid than mine or yours. I have a lot of Bibles and have read it many times and still am reading it again and again. So, am I qualified to offer authoritative and inerrant guidance as to the meaning of any given passage? See the messed up logic here? The Catholic interpretations of the Bible are based both on the original languages and the ECF's writings that tell us what they learned directly from the apostles. Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch and the Didache are excellent examples of very informative early church writings since they date from the late first and early second century and are verifiably Christian. (Unlike the Gnostic writings which are verifiably NOT.)
Quote:
His Spirit is the one who reveals truth to us.
Catholics would agree with this. However, you can simply point out that the Holy Spirit's leading is precisely why you and your wife are Catholic. He can babble his head off, but he cannot refute that...though you can rest assured that he will try. In fact...he runs afoul of a very important passage of scripture here. Watch... 1st Corinthians 14 says, "29: Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. What "others"? He's speaking of the church. And since the church has already dealt with the errors of the reformers, it has also dealt with the errors of all their subsequent step-children as well, in this case Sola Scriptura.

Here he's off his own topic since the fact is that the issue of correct authoritative interpretation is not all that related to the idea of SS itself, but even so..he's in theological trouble here because he cannot validly assert that his interpretations are correct since he does not consult (or perhaps even consider valid! ) the ECF nor the history of the Christian faith.
Quote:
Interpretations of the Bible are like walking through a door and behind that door is another door and behind that another it goes deeper and deeper as the Spirit will instruct.
Interesting...but actually nothing more than rhetorical irrelevence. It's his opinion...big deal.
Quote:
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Here he's messed up his own case again because that verse (Romans 10:17) plainly says that faith comes by what? Hearing, right? Not written...do you see where that leads? If one has to be able to read a Bible to be saved then there will be alot more folks in hell than some n-Cs think because (even today) not everyone is literate...but everyone comprehends their spoken language, don't they? Consider the low literacy levels of most people throughout human history. How was the Gospel spread? The printing press didn't come along until 1447, so there weren't Chick tracts or even many reasonably affordable Bibles to be had until after that. His passage just doesn't wash, does it?
(Cont'd)
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  #21  
Old Sep 17, '06, 12:40 am
Roman_Catholic Roman_Catholic is offline
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Default Re: Need your help

Wow Church simply amazing........

Thanks I will post what he replies.
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"I will bring you to the land not of questions but of answers,
and you shall see the face of God."

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  #22  
Old Sep 17, '06, 1:15 am
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Quote:
Heb. 4:12.......For the word of God is alive and active not dead pages in a book..Able to divide between soul and spirit, bone and marrow it judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Okay... this is fine, except what does John 1:say?
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
4: In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5: The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ...
14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
What does St. John tell us is the Word? So what is sharper than any two edged sword?

He's quoted Romans 10:17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ. It's not the Bible per se that brings faith...it's the preaching of Christ and Him crucified. (Just FYI: A good side case here can be made for Catholic crucifixes. We go out of our way to preach Christ crucified. See 1st Corinthians 2:1-5.)
Quote:
. So to say that no passage of scripture is of ones own interpretation is in error of the scripture it's self. Is that not proper context?
As a matter of fact...as I showed in my post above..it is not. Here he's twisting the living daylights out of the plain sense of the text of 2nd Peter 1:20. I won't even answer this except to offer what the notes say in my Douay-Rheims Bible.
Quote:
20 "No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation"... This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.
Quote:
Be like the Bereans and study for yourself. Don't just take any mans word on it. God will show you Him self if you truly want to know deep in your heart.God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. That is where revelation or revealing of His word or scriptures comes from.
Catholics would not argue with this. Why else is there a plenary indulgence offered for reading the Bible for 30 minutes as spiritual reading and then going to confession and communion? That tells you just how important reading the Bible is to the Catholic Church.

The only real problem here is that if you ask him, he doesn't mean the same thing with this that we do. His last line is very instructive. At first glance, it looks like it's okay, but what he is actually espousing here is his errant belief in private revelation of meanings in the Bible and what he's really saying is "This is how I came to the beliefs that I have, and they are right and yours are wrong." I can show you a really good example of this from a thread my buddy The Black Knight opened over on Sean Hannity's religion forum entitled Baptism~Necessary or Not? There are 351 posts on that thread, but you only have to read about the first page or so to see some great examples of this very kind of theological twisted interpretation of passages of scripture. Blackie has since dropped out of the thread because (as he told me privately) he can't reason with people whose feet don't seem to touch the ground. Meaning that their interps are so twisted and far afield from what the plain sense of the passages say that there's just no point in further discussion with them. You see the same sort of stuff at some of the anti-Catholic forums on the net.

Roman_Catholic, I hope I've been of some help. I think you may be wasting your time to respond to him, but ya just never know what the Holy Spirit's going to use with someone like that. So...in this particular point, your FIL is right. You can and should pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you as to whether to answer or not, and then to guide you as to what to include.
As always, if you need any help at all, you know where to find me.
Pax tecum,
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  #23  
Old Sep 17, '06, 4:19 am
dal11 dal11 is offline
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Have you ever explained to him, it was the Catholic church who put the bible together in the first place. Who better to help with interpreting it then the ones who gave it to us.
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  #24  
Old Sep 17, '06, 7:52 am
Liberian Liberian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
Hey guys here is what he wrote, its alittle over my head maybe someone could help? thanks:
Roman Catholic,

Wow! That's quite the screed. Church Militant has already gone over it, but I feel called (or maybe it's my innate cussedness) to go over part of it at least.
Quote:
If no passage of scripture is of ones own interpretation then who's is it?
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, of course.

I should point out that there is nothing wrong with personal interpretations as long as they do not contradict Catholic teachings. God has said, through the teaching office of the Church, that certain things are true. Any interpretation that contradicts what God has said is true is by definition in error.
Quote:
If the word of God is not His personal love letter to you who is It written too?
I have yet to see a personal love letter that includes long genealogies, commandments to exterminate various tribes, and laws governing all aspects of life. I appreciate the sentiment, but the statement is simply ridiculous.
Quote:
It is 2 Peter not 1st and His word to us is in this scripture is simple like a personal relationship with the living God is.
I think here he is referring to II Peter 3:16, about some things in Paul's letters being hard to understand. Again, while the sentiment that "this scripture is simple" sounds nice, he is pretty flatly contradicting what the Bible actually says here.
Quote:
... Jesus said " I have much to say to you.......But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes he will guide you into all truth. John 16:13.
The interesting part of this quote is that people will apply it to themselves and deny that it applies to the Magisterium of the Church. I don't mind people claiming that the Spirit will guide them into all truth--I claim it myself--but I do mind when they claim that the Spirit will not guide somebody else into all truth. I find that the Spirit's usual method of guiding me into all truth is to sit me down with the Bible, the Catechism or an encyclical.
Quote:
Be like the Bereans and study for yourself. Don't just take any mans word on it. God will show you Him self if you truly want to know deep in your heart.
By all means study for yourself, but also be guided by what we already know is true. If somebody studies mathematics and concludes that two plus two equals five, we know he has made a mistake somewhere, no matter how beautiful and inspired his theorems may be.

And the Catholic Church is not just "any man." She is the Bride of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth. It is disheartening how many people will say that "God will show you" and will then complain when God shows you something different from what they wanted Him to show you.

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  #25  
Old Sep 17, '06, 11:01 am
VociMike VociMike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
What if he comes back and says that 1 Tim 3:15 is refering to Jesus as the pillar and foundation of truth? Because it says the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
Jesus is Truth. He is not a pillar and foundation of Himself. That would make no sense. It is just an evasion.

Quote:
Secondly what if he comes back that there is no way to tell that the Catholic Church is that Church? Like if he says, "ok which church then"? Or he says that all christians make up the "church"
How about the Church that has existed since Pentecost? History is not silent on this issue, though most Protestants want to believe (indeed, must believe) that it (history) is silent on this issue. There is no question, to those who evaluate the evidence in an unbiased way, that the Catholic Church goes back to the beginning of Christianity.

You could also compile a list of his biggest claimed falsehoods that the Catholic Church teaches, and point out that the Early Church Fathers never spoke out against any of them. No ECF ever condemns any of the foundational Catholic teachings as heretical. How can that be, if the ECFs weren't Catholic? How can that be, if the ECFs were really closet Protestants, as many Protestants wish to believe?
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  #26  
Old Sep 17, '06, 12:23 pm
Roman_Catholic Roman_Catholic is offline
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Wow he came back and really had nothing to say. Nice job church

I have been fighting with this guy for 2 years but it took you three paragraphs to put him out of words, this is what he replied with.

Quote:
See this is the difference between Religion and a relationship.You need to think for yourself this what I have always tried to show you. God is Spirit he does not conform to the way of a man. You diligently study the scriptures ( theology,tradition) because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, (said Y'shua) yet you refuse to come to me for life. John 5:39 Who is he talking to and what do you think is the interpretation of this passage?
If you know this guy this is the shortest thing he has ever written, to me this letter reeks of frustration knowing that now that sola scriptura has been taken out from under him, he has not a leg to stand on.

Thanks again
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"I will bring you to the land not of questions but of answers,
and you shall see the face of God."

The Spirit to the Ghost;
C.S. Lewis The Great Divorce
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  #27  
Old Sep 17, '06, 1:15 pm
VociMike VociMike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
Wow he came back and really had nothing to say. Nice job church

I have been fighting with this guy for 2 years but it took you three paragraphs to put him out of words, this is what he replied with.

Quote:
See this is the difference between Religion and a relationship.You need to think for yourself this what I have always tried to show you. God is Spirit he does not conform to the way of a man. You diligently study the scriptures ( theology,tradition) because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, (said Y'shua) yet you refuse to come to me for life. John 5:39 Who is he talking to and what do you think is the interpretation of this passage?
To which I would reply, we don't think we possess eternal life by study. We possess eternal life by Christ. We study to better know Him, to better love Him, to better conform our own wills to His will, to better unite with Him.
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  #28  
Old Sep 17, '06, 2:23 pm
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Quote:
See this is the difference between Religion and a relationship.
A religion is a way of having a relationship with God. If you do not have a religion (a religion is simply an organized system of thinking about God and being present with God - it provides us with places to go, people to interact with, ways of communicating with God, such as prayer and worship) then you do not have a relationship with God.

While it is certainly possible to go through the motions of a religion without actually having a relationship with God, it is impossible to have a living and vital relationship with God without a religion.

Quote:
You need to think for yourself this what I have always tried to show you. God is Spirit he does not conform to the way of a man.
This is true. That's why the way we relate to God is through a religion. We relate to other people much more casually. Even the rituals that we use to interact with royalty and with leaders of nations are not good enough for God. God requires our whole life, and that means that we need to structure our lives according to His will - that life structure that God gives us is called "religion."

Quote:
You diligently study the scriptures ( theology,tradition) because you think that by them you possess eternal life.
You have no way of knowing what someone is thinking unless you ask them. It is rather arrogant to tell someone what he is thinking.

Even so - no, the reason we study the things of God is the same reason that a lover studies the ways of his beloved - he wants to know what she does, where she goes, and who her friends are so that he can share her interests, be where she is, and meet her friends. Those who love God study the ways of God.

In Psalm 1 we are told, "Blessed is the man who walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scorner, But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law doth he meditate both day and night. "

To be a student of God's law brings many blessings, according to this Psalm.

Quote:
These are the Scriptures that testify about me, (said Y'shua) yet you refuse to come to me for life. John 5:39 Who is he talking to and what do you think is the interpretation of this passage?
He was speaking to those particular Pharisees and Saducees who had substituted a human religion in place of the Divine religion, and who were doing according to their personal interpretations and what seemed "reasonable" to them, rather than according to God's actual laws.
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  #29  
Old Sep 17, '06, 3:37 pm
Roman_Catholic Roman_Catholic is offline
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He wrote again and said that we sounded hostile. I told him that we did not intend to and that we aimed merely to enlighten.

I did however put in there that he needed to accept what his daughter has become in christ.

Still none the less me and my fiance both concluded that he will never be able to accept her Catholic faith and we both have agreed that if that is the case that we are willing to move on with our lives without him. I told him it was heart breaking to have come to this but this is where the situation is at. I told him the choice was his.

thanks again for everyones help.
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"I will bring you to the land not of questions but of answers,
and you shall see the face of God."

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  #30  
Old Sep 17, '06, 6:05 pm
Philthy Philthy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
He wrote again and said that we sounded hostile. I told him that we did not intend to and that we aimed merely to enlighten.

I did however put in there that he needed to accept what his daughter has become in christ.

Still none the less me and my fiance both concluded that he will never be able to accept her Catholic faith and we both have agreed that if that is the case that we are willing to move on with our lives without him. I told him it was heart breaking to have come to this but this is where the situation is at. I told him the choice was his.

thanks again for everyones help.
What a second there partner! Your gonna cut off communication with your FIL?????? I dont think anyone meant to lead you down that road. Love is patient, love is kind, love is gentle etc. This is your father in law, future grandfather of any children you may have and you need to find unity to whatever degree you can find it. Trust me on this little detail - my 3 children have never met there maternal grandfather over hostilities between him and my wife. You dont want that over this. Christ certainly doesnt want you two arguing theology.
This may sound odd, but have you thanked him for his concern for the both of you? At the very least, be grateful that he cares so much about Faith to make such an effort. There is nothing wrong with letting him know that you are doing what you believe Jesus wants you to do and that you have to defer to what you believe to be God's Will in your life. You are grateful(you really should be unless you doubt his motives) for all his concern and regret the discomfort this has caused him but you confess Jesus as your Savior and believe in your heart, with God as judge, that this is what He has called you to do.......
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