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  #1  
Old Nov 28, '05, 4:05 pm
Scout Scout is offline
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Default The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

Today, we've read Chapter 11, Aslan is Nearer.

Why do you think Lewis incorporated Fr. Christmas into his story? Why do you think the coming of Fr. Christmas was so important to the story?

Scout
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  #2  
Old Nov 28, '05, 4:19 pm
David Zampino David Zampino is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout
Today, we've read Chapter 11, Aslan is Nearer.

Why do you think Lewis incorporated Fr. Christmas into his story? Why do you think the coming of Fr. Christmas was so important to the story?

Scout

The coming of Father Christmas was necessary because Mr. Tumnus had made it clear that part of the White Witch's magic was to make it "always winter and never Christmas". Father Christmas would have been the Christmas symbol most easily recognized by the English children who were the original intended audience.

HOWEVER, Lewis was strongly criticized by several of his friends, including JRR Tolkien for his inclusion of elements from so many different mythological traditions, ESP. the Father Christmas episode.
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God is the Lord, of angels, and of men -- and of elves.
Legend and History have met and fused.

On Fairy Stories -- J. R. R. Tolkien
  #3  
Old Nov 28, '05, 5:20 pm
wisdom 3:5's Avatar
wisdom 3:5 wisdom 3:5 is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout
Today, we've read Chapter 11, Aslan is Nearer.

Why do you think Lewis incorporated Fr. Christmas into his story? Why do you think the coming of Fr. Christmas was so important to the story?

Scout
Well, during Advent we celebrate the impending birth of Christ (Aslan is nearer). Christmas comes after the darkest day of the year (the White Witch's hold over all Narnia). Christ, the Light of the world dispels the darkness and breaks the hold death has over us (the White Witch holds Narnia in winter which is considered a time of death). Fr. Christams is a symbol to children of Christmas. The first sign of the change that is coming. I think that Fr. Christmas also represents the gifts and the generosity that are given to us by God in His Son Jesus.

I think Lewis was also trying to get us to understand how we should feel about Advent and the Birth of Christ. As children we look forward to Christmas like nothing else! There is a hope, wonder, joy, excitement etc to that day, not always because of Christ, but because of the gifts. The way we have felt about the gifts is how we should feel about Christ, God's gift to us.
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  #4  
Old Nov 29, '05, 6:44 am
David Zampino David Zampino is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdom 3:5
Well, during Advent we celebrate the impending birth of Christ (Aslan is nearer). Christmas comes after the darkest day of the year (the White Witch's hold over all Narnia). Christ, the Light of the world dispels the darkness and breaks the hold death has over us (the White Witch holds Narnia in winter which is considered a time of death). Fr. Christams is a symbol to children of Christmas. The first sign of the change that is coming. I think that Fr. Christmas also represents the gifts and the generosity that are given to us by God in His Son Jesus.

I think Lewis was also trying to get us to understand how we should feel about Advent and the Birth of Christ. As children we look forward to Christmas like nothing else! There is a hope, wonder, joy, excitement etc to that day, not always because of Christ, but because of the gifts. The way we have felt about the gifts is how we should feel about Christ, God's gift to us.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree. CS Lewis, in his own words, was NOT trying to write Christian allegory in the Chronicles of Narnia. He realized that there would be applicability, and that people, especially adults, would see connections between the fictional story of Narnia, and the True Story of Jesus -- but it is a mistake to try to force an analogy any further than that.

Sincerely,
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God is the Lord, of angels, and of men -- and of elves.
Legend and History have met and fused.

On Fairy Stories -- J. R. R. Tolkien
  #5  
Old Nov 29, '05, 7:11 am
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wisdom 3:5 wisdom 3:5 is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Zampino
Respectfully, I strongly disagree. CS Lewis, in his own words, was NOT trying to write Christian allegory in the Chronicles of Narnia. He realized that there would be applicability, and that people, especially adults, would see connections between the fictional story of Narnia, and the True Story of Jesus -- but it is a mistake to try to force an analogy any further than that.

Sincerely,
I'm surprised because I've always heard otherwise. My husband just read tLWW and he said that the allegory was too obvious and he should have toned it down a bit. I know he wasn't rewriting the story of Jesus or salvation but in all these stories he uses allegorical concepts that are Christian.
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  #6  
Old Nov 29, '05, 10:42 am
Quaere Verum Quaere Verum is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

I have a question for all of you from cold climates since I come from an area that's always summer and never Christmas. What does it feel like when you have had continuous snows and there is finally a sign of spring? Also, is Christmas considered the dead of winter? After looking forward to Christmas do you then look forward to spring? Is this why the coming of Christmas is important?

Sorry for all the questions, but your answers will help me understand the importance of Father Christmas and the coming spring.
  #7  
Old Nov 29, '05, 6:10 pm
Elizabeth2 Elizabeth2 is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

[quote=Quaere Verum]I have a question for all of you from cold climates since I come from an area that's always summer and never Christmas. What does it feel like when you have had continuous snows and there is finally a sign of spring? Also, is Christmas considered the dead of winter? After looking forward to Christmas do you then look forward to spring? Is this why the coming of Christmas is important?

Sorry for all the questions, but your answers will help me understand the importance of Father Christmas and the coming spring.[/QUOTE
I live in Canada and to be honest I love the snow though I wouldn't like it to go on all year; by the end of the winter I am always glad to welcome spring. I live in BC so the winters aren't too cold but when I lived in Quebec for 37 years it was always wonderful to see signs of spring in March and April: the melting of the snows from the warmth of the sun, longer days, and then suddenly towards the end of April and beginning of May the leaves coming out on the trees. Christmas isn't really the dead of winter, January and February are much colder, even in England where I grew up January was cold, and February not much better (though I remember crocuses in our garden in February). I think the coming of Father Christmas is linked in the story with love and goodness: charity in the form of gift giving; and celebration: gathering together around a meal. Lewis is contrasting the harshness and dreariness, and coldness of evil that gives nothing, with the life affirming qualities of goodness. There is nothing so grim as evil, think of the Nazi and Communist regimes, and of course the white witch's spell on Narnia. Aslan's power affects both realms the spiritual and the physical.
  #8  
Old Nov 30, '05, 7:23 am
David Zampino David Zampino is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdom 3:5
I'm surprised because I've always heard otherwise. My husband just read tLWW and he said that the allegory was too obvious and he should have toned it down a bit. I know he wasn't rewriting the story of Jesus or salvation but in all these stories he uses allegorical concepts that are Christian.
According to George Sayer, the author of the best CS Lewis biography on the market, and someone who knew Lewis for 29 years, Lewis "almost certainly did not want his readers to notice the resemblance of the Narnian theology to the Christian story. His idea, as he once explained to me (Sayer), was to make it easier for children to accept Christianity when they met it later in life. He hoped they would be vaguely reminded of the somewhat similar stories they had read and enjoyed years before."

Blessings,
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Tiber Swim Team -- Class of 2005


God is the Lord, of angels, and of men -- and of elves.
Legend and History have met and fused.

On Fairy Stories -- J. R. R. Tolkien
  #9  
Old Nov 30, '05, 5:05 pm
Elizabeth2 Elizabeth2 is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Zampino
According to George Sayer, the author of the best CS Lewis biography on the market, and someone who knew Lewis for 29 years, Lewis "almost certainly did not want his readers to notice the resemblance of the Narnian theology to the Christian story. His idea, as he once explained to me (Sayer), was to make it easier for children to accept Christianity when they met it later in life. He hoped they would be vaguely reminded of the somewhat similar stories they had read and enjoyed years before."

Blessings,
How can you not notice? Though I think it would be a mistake to overdo the resemblance with children, maybe a few pointers here and there and let them discover the rest for themselves.
  #10  
Old Dec 4, '05, 11:16 am
Fitz Fitz is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout
Why do you think Lewis incorporated Fr. Christmas into his story? Why do you think the coming of Fr. Christmas was so important to the story?
I think that every child would relate to Fr. Christmas and his importance in the life of any child. The mere thought of any evil that would not allow Fr. Christmas must seem incomprehendable to most young children. His emergence into the story was a breath of fresh air, hope, and a promise just as our Springtime is for us.
  #11  
Old Dec 4, '05, 2:41 pm
David Zampino David Zampino is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth2
How can you not notice? Though I think it would be a mistake to overdo the resemblance with children, maybe a few pointers here and there and let them discover the rest for themselves.
And I think that this is precisely what happened. A few pointers here and there. For myself, having grown up in a devoutly Christian home, I saw the "point" of The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe immediately -- but for someone who was not brought up as I was, Lewis' rationale, as stated by Sayer, makes a great deal of sense to me.

Blessings,
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David A. Zampino
Tiber Swim Team -- Class of 2005


God is the Lord, of angels, and of men -- and of elves.
Legend and History have met and fused.

On Fairy Stories -- J. R. R. Tolkien
  #12  
Old Dec 5, '05, 8:17 pm
godschick godschick is offline
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Question Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

im all confused can someone explain what goes on in this chapterto me plz?????????
  #13  
Old Dec 20, '05, 12:26 pm
LSK LSK is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

The introduction of Father Christmas is a direct link to the White Witch claiming to create a place where it is always winter but never Christmas. It is a sign that things are changing, that hope is in the air.
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  #14  
Old Nov 13, '06, 4:59 pm
Peterdiago Peterdiago is offline
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Default Re: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe: Chapter 11

While Lewis may have written LWW without a desire to include Christianity in it, by the time Voyage of Dawn Treader is written the inclusion is obvious.

Really, Narnia is not so much an allegory, but rather a supposal - it is the Creator of the World coming in the form of the native inhabitants to a world which needs him; a world where blood is demanded in return for treachery.

At that stage, while Lewis may have not gone out to write a specifically Christian tale, the point is pretty much moot - write one he did. There is far more to it than mere Christianity, but there is a significant amount of Christian mythology in there.

With regard to Father Christmas, consider that he appears on Christmas Eve and gives presents (in our world). Thus, it can be infered that the arrival of Aslan is going to happen the very next day - a time frame which is pretty accurate, to be frank. Father Christmas shows that it is Christmas - that the Witch's magic is weakening, but also that Aslan is now physically here.

Robert Graves vehemently opposed the inclusion of Father Christmas too.
 

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