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  #1  
Old Dec 14, '06, 2:15 pm
ltravis ltravis is offline
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Default Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

A couple of times lately on the radio show, I have heard references to Adam and Eve in heaven. It most recently came up when the apologist was talking about the limbo of the saints and included Adam and Eve as an example of those who had to wait for Christ's decent to the dead before they could be admitted to heaven. I would have assumed that in subjecting humanity and the universe to such deadly disorder, their eternity would be in serious trouble, especially since I don't recall any reference to them repenting. What's the prevailing theology here? Do we assume they are in Heaven, or do we just not know?

-LT
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  #2  
Old Dec 14, '06, 2:29 pm
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Ceil-1 Ceil-1 is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

At the Byzantine church I have been visiting regularly, there is a large Icon of Jesus during the interim period after dying and before the resurrection "pulling" Adam and Eve up out of the netherworld. The early church clearly believed it. They actually refer to them as saints, albeit in the sense of King David and other OT people. God promises them He will send a savior to reconcile them. That is put quite clearly.
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  #3  
Old Dec 14, '06, 3:06 pm
ltravis ltravis is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceil-1 View Post
At the Byzantine church I have been visiting regularly, there is a large Icon of Jesus during the interim period after dying and before the resurrection "pulling" Adam and Eve up out of the netherworld. The early church clearly believed it. They actually refer to them as saints, albeit in the sense of King David and other OT people. God promises them He will send a savior to reconcile them. That is put quite clearly.
Cool, that's great to hear! However, what was the rationale the Church used to determine they were able to get to Heaven? Is there evidence they repented? I mean, they really did some serious wrong! Could it be that without Christ, they were not capable of virtue in the same way and thus could not be held accountable in the same way? If so would that go for anyone in the O.T., including Pharoah?

Thanks,
LT
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Old Dec 14, '06, 3:28 pm
Reformed Rob Reformed Rob is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

Typically, the verse in Genesis where God covers Adam and Eve's private parts with a garments He made for them is interpreted to be symbolic of his salvation.


Genesis 3:21
And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.

There is an icon I got a few months back showing Adam and Eve being lifted up into heaven or something like that. It's probably more well known in Eastern Orthodox Church:



"The Harrowing of Hell"
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  #5  
Old Dec 16, '06, 12:00 pm
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Ceil-1 Ceil-1 is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

Thank you, R.R., that is the icon. It has always been part of Church tradition that Adam and Eve achieved salvation. I suppose it was one of the things passed on from the Apostles. I guess I don't see the value of having to "prove" everything explicitly from Scripture. What a poverty.

At this same Byzantine church, it is taught that the Protoevangelium of James is historical fact, and, lo and behold it turns out that some of its content, such as Anna and Joachim being Mary's parents, and Joseph being about 110 years old with grown kids (thus, Jesu's brothers, ie: step brothers, including James the Lesser), has always been part of Church tradition, albeit not emphasized in the past several hundred years. There is so much to learn. I feel sad for those who insist on this Scripture only stuff, because they miss out on all this richness and beauty. It robs them of half their heritage.
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Old Dec 16, '06, 12:38 pm
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

This is from the Office of Readings - LOTH

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/...fm?recnum=6872
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  #7  
Old Dec 17, '06, 8:42 am
Verbum Verbum is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

Hi LT,

We cannot be sure of anybody being in heaven, except the canonized saints; just as we are not sure of anybody being in hell, not even Judas.

However, it would be a great faillure for God if the first humans He created were not saved. God's promise of salvation for humanity in Genesis certainly seems to give hope to Adam and Eve first, to us all second.

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  #8  
Old Dec 18, '06, 7:19 am
ltravis ltravis is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

Verbum (and all) - thanks for all the replies. Thanks to the traditions you have provided, I have no problem believing they are in heaven now, and it is really reassuring. I don't need scriptural evidence; if the Church suggests they are, that's good enough for me.

However, perhaps I am overthinking now, but I just would really like to know how the Church's reasoning behind it, even though I already accept it. Adam and Eve sinned, and my thinking is that a serious sinner has to reconcile with God to again get access the saving grace needed for Heaven (i.e. confession for in our case). Given that there is no direct evidence of such, how did the Church in its wisdom ascertain they are probably in heaven then? Why did God choose to save them, as evidenced by clothing their nakedness? My ideas:

1) Their sins weren't really "mortal" since they were tricked by the serpent.

2) Something in their subsequent behavior suggest they were truly sorry after eating the fruit, and God accepted it.

3) They were granted a special favor (a "get out of Hell free" card as it were) because God can do what he wants.

4) They may not have personally repented, but as the parents of humanity, they are mystically connected in a mysterious way such that the salvation of humanity in general directly applies to them.

5) It is incomprensible that God would allow his original creations of humanity to be fallen. Thus it is assumed God gave them an opportunity to reconcile sometime before or at death, even though we don't have direct revelation of it.

Are any of these ideas correct? Is there some other reason?

Thanks again!
LT
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  #9  
Old Dec 18, '06, 7:27 am
Verbum Verbum is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

Hi lt,

Stick with #2 and finish your Christmas shopping.

Verbum
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  #10  
Old Dec 18, '06, 7:37 am
ltravis ltravis is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

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Originally Posted by Verbum View Post
Hi lt,

Stick with #2 and finish your Christmas shopping.

Verbum
Cool, I like that line of thinking

LT
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  #11  
Old Dec 18, '06, 8:33 am
itsjustdave1988 itsjustdave1988 is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceil-1 View Post
At the Byzantine church I have been visiting regularly, there is a large Icon of Jesus during the interim period after dying and before the resurrection "pulling" Adam and Eve up out of the netherworld. The early church clearly believed it. They actually refer to them as saints, albeit in the sense of King David and other OT people. God promises them He will send a savior to reconcile them. That is put quite clearly.
I have a replica of this icon hangin in my cubicle at work...
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  #12  
Old Dec 18, '06, 8:35 am
itsjustdave1988 itsjustdave1988 is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

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Originally Posted by ltravis View Post
...I mean, they really did some serious wrong!
Is there a sin so serious that Christ could not atone for it?
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  #13  
Old Dec 18, '06, 10:29 am
ltravis ltravis is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsjustdave1988 View Post
Is there a sin so serious that Christ could not atone for it?
Did I imply this? I didn't mean to if I did. As I understand it, Christ's atonement is for every sinner, but they have to accept his atonement. I wasn't sure Adam & Eve had done that, but Verbum assured me that their behavior showed true sorrow for their sins, and thus the atonement was accepted.

LT
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  #14  
Old Dec 18, '06, 11:06 am
Malcolm McLean Malcolm McLean is offline
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Default Re: Adam & Eve - in Heaven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ltravis View Post
A couple of times lately on the radio show, I have heard references to Adam and Eve in heaven. It most recently came up when the apologist was talking about the limbo of the saints and included Adam and Eve as an example of those who had to wait for Christ's decent to the dead before they could be admitted to heaven. I would have assumed that in subjecting humanity and the universe to such deadly disorder, their eternity would be in serious trouble, especially since I don't recall any reference to them repenting. What's the prevailing theology here? Do we assume they are in Heaven, or do we just not know?

-LT
Adam will be saved, or Christ's sacrifice would be in vain. However he cannot be saved yet, because the consequences of his sin are still with us. So Dante puts him exactly in the middle of his Divine Comedy, at the centre of the souls making their way through Purgatory.
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