Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Archive > Archive > Karl Keating's E-Letter: 2008
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

 
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #46  
Old Feb 14, '07, 4:16 pm
Legal Eagle Legal Eagle is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2007
Posts: 384
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

First I would like to thank Mr. Keating for his excellent work. He has benefited us all.

BUT I would urge the posters here, and Mr. Keating as well, not to judge the Southern Poverty Law Center too harshly. The SPLC generally does quite good work keeping track of racist and militia groups across the nation. Here in Mississippi the SPLC has been insturmental in exposing many of our "main stream" politicians' ties to segergationist and neo-confederate groups as well as the infamous Sovereignty Commission. The work that the SPLC does is important, and they should be congratulated for it.

In short, if the SPLC's report on anti-Semitism within the Traditionalist movement is sloppy, then that sloppiness should be exposed and the reporter should be taken to task. But I would ask you to look at the entire body of the SPLC's work before you judge the merits of the entire organization.
__________________

Tiber Swim Team '03

When someone steals another's clothes, we call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not?

Basil the Great
  #47  
Old Feb 14, '07, 4:36 pm
chosen people chosen people is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 11, 2007
Posts: 2,036
Religion: Jewish
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by qmvsimp View Post
It's kind of hard to reply to your "I see anti-Semitism everywhere" diatribe. While I agree that the past is important, let's note that almost every organized religious group has said and done bad things to other groups in the past and both Jewish and Catholic groups have been on both sides of the issue throughout history. Our prior Pope, JohnPaul II, has apologized for the Church and her members for their sins against Jews in the past.

What we're talking about and what this eletter is about is the current state of anti-Semitism in Traditional Catholic circles. Does it exist, yes, is it ingrained in Catholicism and her members, I think not. Can you find anti-Semitism on Catholic websites if you look for it, yes. But that doesn't tell us that it pervades Catholicism today.

I visited a web site from members of Kahani Chai, a Jewish militant group that advocates exterminating all Palestinians. Fortunately, I don't regard them as representative of Judaism today. I would appreciate it if you would give us the same courtesy.
The Cahane Chai organization is deemed an outlawed terrorist organization under Israeli law. You indeed could not have chosen a less representative and more extreme group.

It is not my wish to find antisemitism among Catholics. The reverse is true. I am shocked anew each day when I visit this forum. I really wanted to believe that things had changed after Vatican II. However if this forum and its threads are anything to judge by then ingrained antisemitic attitudes are rampant whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.

I believe the only way that this situation can change is if Catholics study in detail the history of Church antisemitism and acknowledge that it was wrong. Instead invariably the reaction is either that there is no problem today of antisemitsm or the attempt to explain antisemitic acts as not being antisemitic or the attempt to justify the antisemitic act. On this thread alone you can find examples of all three standard reactions. Unfortunately none of these reactions allow for the rooting out of ingrained antisemitism from the Catholic Church and its adherents.
  #48  
Old Feb 14, '07, 4:43 pm
Karl Keating Karl Keating is offline
President, Catholic Answers
 
Join Date: April 1, 2004
Posts: 1,025
Religion: Catholic, of course
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

You may be right that there is little hope for dialogue--at least if the people involved hyperventilate the way you do.

You say, for instance, that this was a case of "a young child, unable to formulate consent, [being] forcibly baptized." Where is the evidence of force?

This was a case of a young child who was baptized by a devout, concerned maid who, unknowningly, acted against her own Church's rules. (The Church says now--and said then--that baptisms are not to be performed by private persons but by priests at a parish.)

If the baptism was done in the normal way, all the maid did was pour a little water on the child's head while saying aloud the baptismal formula. She could have done this while giving the child a bath. Where is the "force" here?

As for the "Stockholm Syndrome" stuff, that's nonsense. There is nothing in the record to suggest that Mortara had any problem remotely like that. All the evidence indicates that he, like his one-time maid, was in adulthood a devout and deeply believing Catholic. Unlike her, he was well educated in the faith.

Why don't you just accept that he happened to believe the Catholic faith to be true, was happy to be a priest, and was happy to have become a Catholic, even though through an irregular means? Even in the nineteenth century there were not a few Jews who converted to the Catholic faith--including some famous ones who became priests, such as the Ratisbonne brothers and the Lemann brothers (the latter being twins). Nearer our own time, the former chief rabbi of Rome, Eugenio Zolli, became a Catholic.

All of these men were Catholics because they thought the Catholic faith to be true. None of them remained in the Church because of something like the "Stockholm Syndrome," and it's uncharitable to them, as it is to Mortara, to attribute their persistence as Catholics to such a psychological prop.
__________________
Karl
  #49  
Old Feb 14, '07, 5:35 pm
chosen people chosen people is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 11, 2007
Posts: 2,036
Religion: Jewish
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Keating View Post
You may be right that there is little hope for dialogue--at least if the people involved hyperventilate the way you do.

You say, for instance, that this was a case of "a young child, unable to formulate consent, [being] forcibly baptized." Where is the evidence of force?

This was a case of a young child who was baptized by a devout, concerned maid who, unknowningly, acted against her own Church's rules. (The Church says now--and said then--that baptisms are not to be performed by private persons but by priests at a parish.)

If the baptism was done in the normal way, all the maid did was pour a little water on the child's head while saying aloud the baptismal formula. She could have done this while giving the child a bath. Where is the "force" here?

As for the "Stockholm Syndrome" stuff, that's nonsense. There is nothing in the record to suggest that Mortara had any problem remotely like that. All the evidence indicates that he, like his one-time maid, was in adulthood a devout and deeply believing Catholic. Unlike her, he was well educated in the faith.

Why don't you just accept that he happened to believe the Catholic faith to be true, was happy to be a priest, and was happy to have become a Catholic, even though through an irregular means? Even in the nineteenth century there were not a few Jews who converted to the Catholic faith--including some famous ones who became priests, such as the Ratisbonne brothers and the Lemann brothers (the latter being twins). Nearer our own time, the former chief rabbi of Rome, Eugenio Zolli, became a Catholic.

All of these men were Catholics because they thought the Catholic faith to be true. None of them remained in the Church because of something like the "Stockholm Syndrome," and it's uncharitable to them, as it is to Mortara, to attribute their persistence as Catholics to such a psychological prop.
The force is in a Jewish child being baptized without his ability to give consent due to his age and without receiving the consent of his parents and legal guardians and then having the child forcibly removed forever from his parents against their wishes.

As stated above your inability to see anything immoral or wrong in the above act speaks volumes. Again I hope that this is merely your own immorality and that all good people of every religion would have a different opinion.

Had the situation been reversed and a Jewish family took a little Catholic boy away from his family and inducted him into Judaism - would you feel the same way? I'm sure you would have the same understanding of our not returning the little boy to his family so that he could reap the benifits of the Jewish religion and the benifit of belonging to the Jewish people. If after being deprived of his family and being raised in a Yeshiva his whole life he decided to become a Rabbi - this would no doubt be his "free" choice. Oh wait - having been brought up Jewish he would have the moral wisdom to realize that his forced conversion and forced removal from his family was immoral and wrong - so let's leave little Catholic boys to grow up in the faith their family wishes.

Indeed in the 19th Century many european Jews, especially in Germany chose, of their own free will, to convert to Catholicism. Many did it to remove the social boundries placed on them by antisemitism. The irony is that Hitler defined their offspring as Jews and in the end many of these families were murdered by the Nazi's for being "Jewish"
  #50  
Old Feb 14, '07, 7:11 pm
qmvsimp qmvsimp is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2004
Posts: 1,078
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

It's all crystal clear to me know folks. Thanks to Chosen People for setting me straight.

As a Catholic, in order to not be anti-Semitic (as Chosen People defines it), I must study any and every time a Catholic has wronged a Jew throughout history. (This includes anyone who's ever baptized or converted a Jew). I must then ask God and Jews in general for forgiveness for the sins of the forebearers of my faith. Then I must recogize that the anti-Semitic "Jewish Naturalism" is inbred in my faith, and I must do everything I can to force people to recognize it and stamp it out. Finally, I must never share my faith with someone who is Jewish, for fear I might brainwash him into converting to the anti-Semitic Catholic faith. And I must never wish a Jewish person to convert.

Thanks for making it clear to me and others what your beliefs are. We'll give them every consideration they deserve.
  #51  
Old Feb 15, '07, 6:05 am
chosen people chosen people is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 11, 2007
Posts: 2,036
Religion: Jewish
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by qmvsimp View Post
It's all crystal clear to me know folks. Thanks to Chosen People for setting me straight.

As a Catholic, in order to not be anti-Semitic (as Chosen People defines it), I must study any and every time a Catholic has wronged a Jew throughout history. (This includes anyone who's ever baptized or converted a Jew). I must then ask God and Jews in general for forgiveness for the sins of the forebearers of my faith. Then I must recogize that the anti-Semitic "Jewish Naturalism" is inbred in my faith, and I must do everything I can to force people to recognize it and stamp it out. Finally, I must never share my faith with someone who is Jewish, for fear I might brainwash him into converting to the anti-Semitic Catholic faith. And I must never wish a Jewish person to convert.

Thanks for making it clear to me and others what your beliefs are. We'll give them every consideration they deserve.
Of course as you well know I did not say the things you attributed it to me.

I did say that the Catholic Church has a well documented horrible history of persecuting the Jews and committing despicable acts against them. It is enough to know that many of the edicts of Hitler against the Jews, such as expulsions, living in a ghetto, wearing the yellow star of david and the stripping of Jews of all civil and legal rights were merely the revival of Catholic Church edicts against the Jews, many of them enforced by Pius IX against the Jews of Rome.

I believe that in order for there to be true religious tolerance between Catholicism and Judaism and in order to eliminate the underlying causes of antisemitism in Catholicism it is incumbent for all good Catholics to learn about the persecutions of Jews by the Catholic Church and its adherents and to understand and eliminate its underlying causes.

An integral part of the Catholic faith, as I understand it, is in bringing people "into the fold". When a Catholic tries to convert a Jew he doesn't do it because of hate but because he believes he must "save the soul" of the "unbeliever".

However,conversions by force, such as the many cases where the "convert" had to choose between Catholicism or expulsion or death were and are a horrendous crime and a stain on the Catholic Church. So is the converting of small children unable to give consent and against the will of the child's parents. Such "conversions" of Jews are not only non binding under Judaism. "Consent" under duress or where a young minor child is involved is not considered as "consent", either for the purpose of civil or of criminal law, in any western legal system. Kidnapping of children, despite Mr. Keating's claim, is also a hienous crime under all western legal systems.

I fear you make me out to be altruistic when I am not. Catholics, not Jews,believe in eternal damnation in the flames of Hell. If you or any Catholic feels the need to ask forgiveness from God for the sins commited by the Catholic Church against the Jews that is your business. Considering the acts involved and the suffering done to so many innocent people I for one am perfectly able to accept the alternative.

I am here for a strictly egotistical reason. It is I who wish to be eventually able to forgive you and all Catholics.
  #52  
Old Feb 15, '07, 8:33 am
qmvsimp qmvsimp is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2004
Posts: 1,078
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen people View Post
Of course as you well know I did not say the things you attributed it to me.

I did say that the Catholic Church has a well documented horrible history of persecuting the Jews and committing despicable acts against them. It is enough to know that many of the edicts of Hitler against the Jews, such as expulsions, living in a ghetto, wearing the yellow star of david and the stripping of Jews of all civil and legal rights were merely the revival of Catholic Church edicts against the Jews, many of them enforced by Pius IX against the Jews of Rome.

I believe that in order for there to be true religious tolerance between Catholicism and Judaism and in order to eliminate the underlying causes of antisemitism in Catholicism it is incumbent for all good Catholics to learn about the persecutions of Jews by the Catholic Church and its adherents and to understand and eliminate its underlying causes.

An integral part of the Catholic faith, as I understand it, is in bringing people "into the fold". When a Catholic tries to convert a Jew he doesn't do it because of hate but because he believes he must "save the soul" of the "unbeliever".

However,conversions by force, such as the many cases where the "convert" had to choose between Catholicism or expulsion or death were and are a horrendous crime and a stain on the Catholic Church. So is the converting of small children unable to give consent and against the will of the child's parents. Such "conversions" of Jews are not only non binding under Judaism. "Consent" under duress or where a young minor child is involved is not considered as "consent", either for the purpose of civil or of criminal law, in any western legal system. Kidnapping of children, despite Mr. Keating's claim, is also a hienous crime under all western legal systems.

I fear you make me out to be altruistic when I am not. Catholics, not Jews,believe in eternal damnation in the flames of Hell. If you or any Catholic feels the need to ask forgiveness from God for the sins commited by the Catholic Church against the Jews that is your business. Considering the acts involved and the suffering done to so many innocent people I for one am perfectly able to accept the alternative.

I am here for a strictly egotistical reason. It is I who wish to be eventually able to forgive you and all Catholics.
OK. You've stated your case. Now I'll state mine. I'll leave out the past since both our faiths have sinned against others in the past.

It is very convenient of you to eschew Jewish racism as on the fringe, yet promote Catholic anti-Semitism as being ingrained in the faith. Both their leaders have condemned this racism. I see them as both on the fringe.

Until this eletter, I had only experienced anti-Catholicism from secularists and Protestants. I feel I have now experienced it from the Jewish side as well.

There's nothing I can really say to convince you that you're barking up the wrong tree, just as there's nothing more you can say that will change my belief that only a select few Catholics practice anti-Semitism. But think this over: are you holding to the same biased beliefs regarding Catholicism as you criticize Catholics for regarding Judaism?
  #53  
Old Feb 15, '07, 11:43 am
chosen people chosen people is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 11, 2007
Posts: 2,036
Religion: Jewish
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by qmvsimp View Post
OK. You've stated your case. Now I'll state mine. I'll leave out the past since both our faiths have sinned against others in the past.

It is very convenient of you to eschew Jewish racism as on the fringe, yet promote Catholic anti-Semitism as being ingrained in the faith. Both their leaders have condemned this racism. I see them as both on the fringe.

Until this eletter, I had only experienced anti-Catholicism from secularists and Protestants. I feel I have now experienced it from the Jewish side as well.

There's nothing I can really say to convince you that you're barking up the wrong tree, just as there's nothing more you can say that will change my belief that only a select few Catholics practice anti-Semitism. But think this over: are you holding to the same biased beliefs regarding Catholicism as you criticize Catholics for regarding Judaism?
Please detail all Jewish "sins" against the Catholics in the last 1500 years. If in fact you have anything at all on your list I promise not to try and justify it or accuse you of antisemitism.

Israel will continue to guarantee the rights of Catholics to freely worship and to protect their holy sites. We do so not because we are ignorant of the horrible atrocities comitted against us by the Catholic Church but because of Jewish religious values and our values of democracy.

If we Jews ever lost those values, if we ever sank to the moral degradation of justifying kidnapping a little child away from his family because we viewed our religion superior, those same Jewish values would make us feel contrition and shame. Religion should give a person a moral compass not destroy it.

Indeed good men like John XXIII and John Paul II recognized the problem of Catholic antisemitism and tried to deal with it. Did that make them anti Catholic? Ironically many "Traditional Catholics", with their "traditonal values" towards the Jews have many unkind things to say about these two men.

The things written on many threads on this forum is proof positive that the message from these two good men has yet to be learned by all adherents of their faith.
  #54  
Old Feb 15, '07, 12:04 pm
Kristopher Kristopher is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2005
Posts: 378
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Keating View Post
... This was a case of a young child who was baptized by a devout, concerned maid who, unknowningly, acted against her own Church's rules. (The Church says now--and said then--that baptisms are not to be performed by private persons but by priests at a parish.) ...
Dear Karl Keating, President

Baptisim can be performed by anyone under certain circumstances, such as the likelihood of death, and the lack of availability of a preist on hand.

I performed a baptisim myself in Saudia Arabia during Desert Shield. A soldier was to go up to what at that time was the front. No priests were available. I was informed that I could do this after some learned that I was Catholic. He was very relieved after the Baptisim to go to the front, to face whatever there was at the time to face.

Baptisim does not occur when there is no opportunity for the person to be educated in the faith, and there must be two witnesses, and in the Sign of the Cross as I understand it: so what is stated as a "rule" in the above mentioned post, is only a policy as are many of the abstracts of Catholic doctrine in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). I have found nothing contrary to my own actions at this Baptisim, in the CCC, or any other Catholic publication that I have read at this time, about this subject.

Most sincerely,



Kristopher
  #55  
Old Feb 16, '07, 2:01 am
qmvsimp qmvsimp is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2004
Posts: 1,078
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen people View Post
Please detail all Jewish "sins" against the Catholics in the last 1500 years. If in fact you have anything at all on your list I promise not to try and justify it or accuse you of antisemitism.

Israel will continue to guarantee the rights of Catholics to freely worship and to protect their holy sites. We do so not because we are ignorant of the horrible atrocities comitted against us by the Catholic Church but because of Jewish religious values and our values of democracy.

If we Jews ever lost those values, if we ever sank to the moral degradation of justifying kidnapping a little child away from his family because we viewed our religion superior, those same Jewish values would make us feel contrition and shame. Religion should give a person a moral compass not destroy it.

Indeed good men like John XXIII and John Paul II recognized the problem of Catholic antisemitism and tried to deal with it. Did that make them anti Catholic? Ironically many "Traditional Catholics", with their "traditonal values" towards the Jews have many unkind things to say about these two men.

The things written on many threads on this forum is proof positive that the message from these two good men has yet to be learned by all adherents of their faith.
I don't see much difference between these two trains of thought (both of which I eschew):

Person C: Jews must recognize that they killed Christ and persecuted the early Church. They must study this history and repent and ask forgiveness. Those that don't deserve the bad things that happen to them and will go to hell.

Person J: Catholics must recognize they they've killed and persecuted Jews throughout history. They must study this and repent and ask forgiveness. Those that don't aren't recognizing their latent anti-Semitism.

As a fair-minded person, I don't judge people on what their predecessors have done, I judge them on what they have done. I would advise you to do the same. Anything less is ignorance at best and racism at worst.

And finally your question: I don't think it does any good to list the sins of the past, especially if you've already repented of them (Pope apologized to Jews). But since we're talking about the past, it would not be fair to limit the examples to only 1500 years and to only Jewish on Catholic persecution.
  #56  
Old Feb 16, '07, 3:48 am
chosen people chosen people is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 11, 2007
Posts: 2,036
Religion: Jewish
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by qmvsimp View Post
I don't see much difference between these two trains of thought (both of which I eschew):

Person C: Jews must recognize that they killed Christ and persecuted the early Church. They must study this history and repent and ask forgiveness. Those that don't deserve the bad things that happen to them and will go to hell.

Person J: Catholics must recognize they they've killed and persecuted Jews throughout history. They must study this and repent and ask forgiveness. Those that don't aren't recognizing their latent anti-Semitism.

As a fair-minded person, I don't judge people on what their predecessors have done, I judge them on what they have done. I would advise you to do the same. Anything less is ignorance at best and racism at worst.

And finally your question: I don't think it does any good to list the sins of the past, especially if you've already repented of them (Pope apologized to Jews). But since we're talking about the past, it would not be fair to limit the examples to only 1500 years and to only Jewish on Catholic persecution.
Well my "fair-minded" and "non antisemitic" friend has just called me a "Christ Killer". Nothing could better demonstrate your non acceptance of the Vactican II changed attitudes towards the Jews and the deceit in your hiding behind the Pope's apology.

One cannot ask forgiveness from something if one doesn't admit the sin. I have patiently waited for 10 righteous Catholics to admit that the kidnapping of Edgaro Mortara from his family forever in order to bring him up "properly" was anything other than a dispicable act. Instead I have heard only from Keating giving his explanation and "justification" to this horrendous injustice to the Mortara family.

You cannot ask forgiveness for something that you refuse to examine. Those who will not learn from history are forced to repeat it. The lessons not learned by Catholics in the Mortara incident brought about the injustice of the Finaly brothers case decades later. Had Catholics acknowledged the immorality of Mortara, the pain and suffering of the Finaly brothers, two Jewish holocaust orphans, could have been prevented.

________________________________________ ________________________________________ __
Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all
nations of the earth be blessed."
  #57  
Old Feb 16, '07, 6:41 am
qmvsimp qmvsimp is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 3, 2004
Posts: 1,078
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen people View Post
Well my "fair-minded" and "non antisemitic" friend has just called me a "Christ Killer". Nothing could better demonstrate your non acceptance of the Vactican II changed attitudes towards the Jews and the deceit in your hiding behind the Pope's apology.

One cannot ask forgiveness from something if one doesn't admit the sin. I have patiently waited for 10 righteous Catholics to admit that the kidnapping of Edgaro Mortara from his family forever in order to bring him up "properly" was anything other than a dispicable act. Instead I have heard only from Keating giving his explanation and "justification" to this horrendous injustice to the Mortara family.

You cannot ask forgiveness for something that you refuse to examine. Those who will not learn from history are forced to repeat it. The lessons not learned by Catholics in the Mortara incident brought about the injustice of the Finaly brothers case decades later. Had Catholics acknowledged the immorality of Mortara, the pain and suffering of the Finaly brothers, two Jewish holocaust orphans, could have been prevented.

________________________________________ ________________________________________ __
Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all
nations of the earth be blessed."
Are you purposely misreading my post or just being facetious? Note how I said that I eschew both positions. You should too, but it seems you hold to the second position. This is typical for someone who holds the position. They read anti-Semitism in everything even when the language is plainly eschewing it.

Over 99% of Catholics today have not sinned against a Jew, therefore, they do not need to own up to any anti-Semitic sins. But due to your anti-Catholicism, you feel we have sinned merely by being Catholic. Perhaps you would prefer we flagallate ourselves.
  #58  
Old Feb 16, '07, 12:56 pm
chosen people chosen people is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 11, 2007
Posts: 2,036
Religion: Jewish
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by qmvsimp View Post
Are you purposely misreading my post or just being facetious? Note how I said that I eschew both positions. You should too, but it seems you hold to the second position. This is typical for someone who holds the position. They read anti-Semitism in everything even when the language is plainly eschewing it.

Over 99% of Catholics today have not sinned against a Jew, therefore, they do not need to own up to any anti-Semitic sins. But due to your anti-Catholicism, you feel we have sinned merely by being Catholic. Perhaps you would prefer we flagallate ourselves.
When I talk about persecution against Jews by the Catholic Church in the form of expulsions,being made to live in ghettoes, being made to wear badges to identify themselves as Jews, forced conversions to Christianity,being stripped of all legal and civil rights and being murdered, I am talking about real things that happened to real people for the crime of being Jewish.

If your response to that is that these acts were commited by the Catholic Church because the Jews killed Jesus or because Christians were socially ostracized from praying together with Jews in their synagogue in the first century of the common era, I presume you are giving some sort of explanation for the acts.

To say, once again, that you eschew both positions is being facetious. Are you saying that the Church did not persecute the Jews just as the Jews did not kill Jesus? In this case you are denying the acts of persecution perpetrated by the Catholic Church against the Jews.

Worse yet, your attitude is that the acts of the Catholic Church against the Jews has absolutely nothing to do with you as a Catholic today. If you as a Catholic were in fact contrite, as you claim, you would have no problem in admitting that the kidnapping of Edgaro Mortara was morally wrong. However, once again you have not. Why not? Is it because you like Mr. Keating would rather try and defend an immoral act than to admit that the act, carried out by the Catholic Church, was in fact immoral. Is it any wonder then that both you and he share in the denial of modern Catholic antisemitism!

If there is no modern Catholic antisemitism why can any Catholic walk into a Catholic bookstore and by a book by Father Denis Fahey? Why is Sungenis so popular, especially here on this forum?

Modern secular academic antisemitism is led by Prof. Kevin
Macdonald who you was born and educated in the Roman Catholic faith. You can read his ideas on the internet. Facinating stuff. He's the darling of the neo Nazi's.

Now, ironically, your absolutely correct in asserting that the great majority of Catholics are not antisemitic and abhor antisemitism. Good Catholics like Dr.Christopher Blosser for example. On his website you can find many links to additional Catholic websites that speak out against antisemitism and promote religious tolerance between Catholics and Jews.

The diffference between Blosser and you and Keating, is that Blosser doesn't deny the relevance of these acts by the Catholic Church against the Jews to himself as a Catholic. He does not try to justify these acts. All you and Keating had to do was to say what any normal moral human being would say, that the kidnapping of a little boy away from his family was an obscene criminal act. You have not been able to do so. Keating went so far as to try and to justify and explain the act.

Until you can state clearly and simply that the act was wrong, immoral and criminal, neither of you has any moral right to make any claims concerning Catholicism and antisemitism, certainly not the claim as to the dearth of Catholic antisemitism.

Neither of you have the right to claim that you stand shoulder to shoulder with the vast majority of Catholics who abhor antisemitism and who codemn, outloud and without justification, the history of the persecution of the Jews by the Catholic Church.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."
  #59  
Old Feb 16, '07, 2:03 pm
Kristopher Kristopher is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2005
Posts: 378
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Dr. Bernard N. Nathanson was a Jew. He converted to Catholicism. As a former founding member of the National Association for the Reform of Abortion Laws (NARAL), now known as the National Abortion Rights Action Leauge (NARAL), he stated clearly in The Silent Scream, which he narrated, and documented the procedure for performing an abortion within the first trimester of pregnancy, he stated that the first task of NARAL was to destroy the Catholic Church. This was a man, that murdered his own child. This demonstrated either ignorance, or negligence of his own Judaic faith, which we know accounted for murder of a person as a crime, on account of the loss of an opportunity for a person to come to know God, as it would be necessitated by God at the moment of each of our own conceptions having created an image of God: the very profound and unique characteristic of humanity, a person, the unity of soul and body; thus separating us from the animal kingdom.

Sigmund Freud furthered our inclusion in the animal kingdom with a very useful assessment of three essential elements to the exclusion of the fourth, the image of God, with respect to human behavior, human personality: the Id, the Ego, and the Superego—the Id being rooted in the Pleasure Principle, that a human body will move away from pain, toward pleasure: when cold, it will seek warmth; when hot, it will seek shade. The Ego being the element we very often despise when out of proper proportion across the span of human development is the part of human behavior testing the limits of the Pleasure Principle, and of the Superego. The Superego are the rules, the laws, the norms of a society, of a civilization, of a culture that keep the Ego further limited in “its” behavior, for lack of being able to find another identity attributed with the function of testing. Though this might not be a direct willful attack against Catholicism, it is very definitely destructive to Catholicism to the extent that it does give cause to sink further into materialism, or into the developments of eugenics and abortion, as it exists today.

Karl Marx of Jewish descent made Communism public, through the publication of his manifesto. There should be no real need to demonstrate the destruction of Catholicity by Communism, though, it might be worthwhile to present Margaret Sanger and her father’s influence of her views, which strongly are emphasized by herself, and those whom have written about her as being socialist, and perhaps even communist: eugenics being favored by her, and her father’s hatred of all things Christian, and perhaps most notably Catholic is infamous.

What reason is there to lay claim to the whole of Catholicism being guilty of anti-Semitisim? Hitler persecuted Catholics. Many Catholics were directly sentenced to death by Hitler’s orders. Many clergy members challenged the anti-Semitism of Hitler, and lost their lives as a consequence.

Judaism among modern American politicians has done what to lessen attacks against Catholicism; has it furthered persecution against Catholicism with the invention of hate crimes against homosexuality on the basis, of what Hitler and perhaps even Margaret Sanger, sanctioned against homosexuals. Senator Lieberman might be an example of this. We practice tolerance as a consequence of the horrors of World War II (WWII) to such an extreme extent, that we have legislated many Catholics out of opportunities to practice their faith, and to develop within Catholics, young and old alike, a complex that they are somehow inferior for recognizing homosexuality as a disorder of the human reproductive system.

In anycase, there is reason to claim Catholicism and Judaism as corrupt and destructive toward humanity; though, it would be unfair: given the opportunities to love, to serve God available through both Judaism, and Catholicism. Is Jesus Christ the Messiah?

What have Jews done to support a reasonable answer to this question? Judaism during Christ’s life, the subsequent events after his death, and his Resurrection were thwarted by Pharisees, Jews. The entire Septuagint, a translation by apparently the finest scholars, six from each of the twelve tribes of Judea commissioned by Alexander the Great, from the Hebrew to the Greek was very much discredited, unreasonably so, by Pharisitic Jews, to the extent that we even to this day have many Christians running around practicing the teachings of “their” Bible as though it were what Jesus himself had used, when it is anything else but this: it is in fact the scriptures used by those whom we know most directly persecuted, and influenced the Roman government very directly to have Jesus crucified. This is not anti-Semitic, but clearly a division, long-standing, among Jews of Jesus’ day, and perhaps even prior to his time—it seems believable that not all Jews accepted the scholarly works of six scholars from each of the twelve tribes, commissioned by Alexander the Great, but this may be moot.
  #60  
Old Feb 16, '07, 2:51 pm
chosen people chosen people is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 11, 2007
Posts: 2,036
Religion: Jewish
Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

Kristopher Shalom:

Remember the thread "Does the SSPX speak uncharitably of the Jews"?

Please look over my posts #88 - #96 and then we'll talk.

I'm not discussing acts by individuals but institutionalised Catholic Church persecution of the Jews over two millenium.

Incidentally, that thread contains some of the most antisemitic material on this forum. Your posts there were a welcome exception.

Why is it so difficult for some Catholics just to study the incidents I detailed in posts #88 - #96 in the above thread, understand it and admit its faults. That's really all that's needed to move forward together for mutual understanding and tolerance.

Pope John XXIII didn't say, "we've done nothing wrong and theirs nothing to apologise about or change" - He didn't say "oh well its the Jews own fault".

________________________________________ ___________
Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."
 

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Archive > Archive > Karl Keating's E-Letter: 2008

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8547Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Eungang
5208CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4434Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3871SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3845Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: daughterstm
3409Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3302Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3231Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Rifester
3155For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Paulette60



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 9:44 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.