which Protestant denominations do actually say the rosary? - Page 3

Subrosa · #31 Mar 17, '05, 1:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katholikos

The words you use are very similar if not identical to this Catholic Answers tract. But I grew up Protestant and I don't agree with the premise. A few Protestants may say the rosary, but the average Evangelical or Fundamentalist Protestant has many objections to it, including:

Some Catholic viewpoints!

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1. Praying to a saint is worship.

Can you tell the difference between worship and asking for help. Prayers to saints come in the form called "Prayers of Intercession" Tha last part of the "Hail Mary" states: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."
Hardly worship. Just asking for help. See James 5:16-18
Mary is the chief among saints, not worshipped. Just venerated.

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2. It's a violation of the First Commandment; the rosary puts Mary before God or makes her at least equal to God. Catholics worship Mary and the rosary is proof.

Do you preach "Sola Scriptura" This says "Bible only." You put the Bible above God. You read the bible, quote the bible, you have Bible churches and Bible colleges. You preach the Bible to the neglect of God and Jesus. You put the Bible above Them. That is Bible worship. This manmade dogma is a later distortion and addition to the Christian faith—something that was unheard of both in the early Church and in Scripture itself. This dogma—which you treat as infallible—states that the Bible and not Jesus is the only source of truth. Your churches have a podium in the middle where you preach the Bible, not God or Jesus. That is proof that you worship the Bible.

How do you like it?

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3. Saints can't hear or answer prayers

Revelation 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.

Holy ones are saints.

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4. Prayers to the dead are necromancy

Luke 20:35-38
35 but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.
36 They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise.
37 That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called 'Lord' the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38 and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Luke 9:29 While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white.
30 And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah,31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions had been overcome by sleep, but becoming fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. Whaddaya think? Moses and Elijah, dead guys or what?

Continued.........

Subrosa · #32 Mar 17, '05, 1:24 pm

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5. Christians can "go directly to God," so it's useless waste of time

Rev. 21:27 ... nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies...

Matthew 12:31Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

What do you think "this age or in the age to come" means? This world and the next, maybe? You got sin, you ain't gettin' in!

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6. There's no mention of prayer to anyone but God in the Bible, therefore it's unbiblical.

See quote from #3, also see Acts 8:59-60. Who is he praying to?

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7. Catholics must believe that saints are omniscient and omnipotent if they think they can hear and answer prayers

See #3 Not Gods, just good friends of His that we ask for help.

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8. The rosary is "vain repetitions" that the Bible warns against.

1 Thesselonians 5:17 "Pray without ceasing"

Revelation 4:8 The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come."

Actually, The Rosary is a meditative prayer cycle. As we pray, we meditate on certain aspects of Christs life. Here's a link. Check it out for yourself.
How to Recite the Holy Rosary.

Hope this helps!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katholikos

I'd have to see some evidence. There have been a couple of books written by Protestant ministers on the rosary, but praying to Mary is a "Catholic" thing, and most Protestants wouldn't be caught dead with a rosary in their hands. That's my experience.

So true!

Proud to do it! You guys are missing out!

God bless!

Shibboleth · #33 Mar 17, '05, 1:49 pm

As Katholikos’ name implies he is a very devout Catholic. Actually I would put him in the master category of defending the Catholic Church. He has put me in my place many times.

He was simply pointing out things that he witnessed before conversion.

StJeanneDArc · #34 Mar 17, '05, 2:33 pm

A few weeks ago I was having dinner with 3 other ladies who are all Episcopalian. They were discussing what one of them should get for a confirmation gift for her 12-year-old nephew. I suggested a rosary, as that was the very thing I had just bought for a 14-year-old boy who I was sponsoring. Well, the 3 of them looked at me with astonishment and declared that Episcopalians absolutely do not pray the rosary.

alterserver_07 · #35 Mar 17, '05, 4:20 pm

I Haven't heard any group of Protestants take it up with there leaders, but individuals I have heard of, but a lot of them covert to the Catholic faith.

Shibboleth · #36 Mar 17, '05, 6:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subrosa

Some Catholic viewpoints!
Can you tell the difference between worship and asking for help. Prayers to saints come in the form called "Prayers of Intercession" Tha last part of the "Hail Mary" states: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."
Hardly worship. Just asking for help. See James 5:16-18
Mary is the chief among saints, not worshipped. Just venerated.

You will get no argument on this from this Protestant but I would be very careful on how things were worded. Most litanies are pretty cautious and acceptable in my humble opinion.

Quote:

Do you preach "Sola Scriptura" This says "Bible only." You put the Bible above God. You read the bible, quote the bible, you have Bible churches and Bible colleges. You preach the Bible to the neglect of God and Jesus. You put the Bible above Them. That is Bible worship. This manmade dogma is a later distortion and addition to the Christian faith—something that was unheard of both in the early Church and in Scripture itself. This dogma—which you treat as infallible—states that the Bible and not Jesus is the only source of truth. Your churches have a podium in the middle where you preach the Bible, not God or Jesus. That is proof that you worship the Bible.

How do you like it?

I like it just fine but just as others misconstrue the Roman Catholic reverence of Mary you are misunderstanding Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura comes first and foremost from faith by way of God’s Grace. By that faith we believe the Gospel to be true and the Gospel directs us to the scriptures. However, because we are sinful and fallible creatures we will misunderstand, mistranslate, or twist from time to time the meaning of the scriptures due to lack of knowledge, lack of intelligence, pride, sloth, or what have you. This is a problem with our limitations and sinful nature and not with the scriptures.

Quote:

Revelation 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.

Holy ones are saints.

Not only that the word translated ‘holy one’ and ‘saint’ throughout the Bible is the exact same word in Greek - same with the Hebrew texts - there is not a different word for Holy One and Saint. In addition if I remember correctly it is the exact same word translated from Aramaic texts. Problematic if translations are doing this to obfuscate the original purpose of the text but not so bad if the translator did it to differentiate when the text talks about those born of this realm and those that were not…

Personally I think the Revelations verse should be translated the same as 'hagos' is in Luke 4:34 - so I agree with you on this fact.

The Hebrew word is Kawdowshee or something like that, I cannot remember off the top of my head.

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Luke 20:35-38
35 but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.
36 They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise.
37 That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called 'Lord' the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38 and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Luke 9:29 While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white.
30 And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah,31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions had been overcome by sleep, but becoming fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. Whaddaya think? Moses and Elijah, dead guys or what?

Good point, but I do not have the power to know who is in heaven and who has not… you have the Roman See on this issue. If I had faith that the Roman See had the power to decipher exactly who was in Heaven then I to might ask certain Saints to Pray on my behalf. Unfortunately I do not believe that the Roman See has this ability.

Subrosa · #37 Mar 17, '05, 10:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shibboleth

I like it just fine but just as others misconstrue the Roman Catholic reverence of Mary you are misunderstanding Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura comes first and foremost from faith by way of God’s Grace. By that faith we believe the Gospel to be true and the Gospel directs us to the scriptures. However, because we are sinful and fallible creatures we will misunderstand, mistranslate, or twist from time to time the meaning of the scriptures due to lack of knowledge, lack of intelligence, pride, sloth, or what have you. This is a problem with our limitations and sinful nature and not with the scriptures.

Thank you for being honest in answering my comments.

I'm sorry. I was being facecious. I know what Sola Scriptura is.

My point is that people who say Catholics worship Mary is about as foolish an argument as the one I gave about Sola Scriptura. Of course protestants don't worship the Bible. Catholics worship the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as triune God. I have no doubt that you do, also.

People who make the accusation that Catholics, and Orthodox for that matter, worship Mary should first find out the truth, then square what they say with the eighth commandment.

Subrosa · #38 Mar 17, '05, 10:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shibboleth

Good point, but I do not have the power to know who is in heaven and who has not… you have the Roman See on this issue. If I had faith that the Roman See had the power to decipher exactly who was in Heaven then I to might ask certain Saints to Pray on my behalf. Unfortunately I do not believe that the Roman See has this ability.

Actually, it's not that easy. To achieve sainthood, a person's life is examined after thier death. The life they have lead must be worthy of holiness. No drunks or druggies here!. Next, three miracles have to be proven and attributable to them. (Not a hard and fast rule). There are other criteria, also. All saints are measured by one yardstick...

Matthew 7:20 Thus you will know them by thier fruits.

Thanks, again.

Subrosa · #39 Mar 17, '05, 11:04 pm

Oh yeah, something else about this.

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8. The rosary is "vain repetitions" that the Bible warns against.

The word vain, does that mean selfish and insincere? That is to say, when you pray you don't really mean it? Can I paraphrase this, "Insincere repetitions"?

The repetitions in Revelations, were they vain?

How about sincere, or not vain repetitions? Is this what the angels were doing? Did they mean what they were saying and is this what makes the difference? Thier repetitious prayer seemed OK with the Lord. So, sincere repetitious prayer is OK then.

Like the Rosary, It ain't OK if you don't mean it sincerely. It's only OK if you are sincere and not vain.

Ergo..."Pray without ceasing"

The peace and love of the Lord be with you.

Subrosa · #40 Mar 17, '05, 11:29 pm

For those who don't know the "Hail Mary", a catholic prayer, I would like to explain it, verse by verse. (It's short!)

1."Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" Luke 1:28

2. "Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus" Luke 1:42

3."Holy Mary, mother of God" Luke 1:43

4. "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

The petition is addressed to the mother of Christ, who loved her Son and had a special relationship with Him, as all mothers have with thier children. She was there at His birth, throughout His life, and at His death.

She is also, by implication, the mother of christianity. See Revelation 12:17 Let me know if you need me to explain this.

With love,
Jerry

Almost Catholic · #41 Mar 18, '05, 9:14 am

While it true that most, if not all, protestant denominations do not TEACH praying the rosary...many individuals do. Perhaps they are moving in the direction of Rome. How do I know this? I am one of them. My mother is another. I have six rosaries, five gifts and one I made myself (slowly).

Please do not generalize protestants into one bag, that is a non-starter. The bag is large and divergent. Unfortunately there is not total union, but I have met so many Catholic individuals that seem to be as subjective in their beliefs are protestants....unfortunately.

Sometimes too confusing for words.

hlgomez · #42 Mar 18, '05, 9:53 am

Mother Mary will be the point of unity of the Body of Christ. Who else can lead us to the Son better than her? The triumph of her Immaculate Heart will soon come about. May God be praised and blessed!

It is thru her that the Church will be once more one flock, and one shepherd. Deep devotions to her brings us more closer to her Son.

Pio

Angainor · #43 Apr 7, '07, 5:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shibboleth

Some Lutherans pray a kind of Rosary where some of the words are changed.

Actually, the Lutherans who say the Rosary say the form that was the common form at the time of the reformation. It is the Roman Catholics who say a version where the words were changed.

For example, in 1568 the Roman Catholics added the last line of the Hail Mary to the "official" version:

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

Traveller1534 · #44 Apr 7, '07, 5:54 pm

I can't believe so many of you Catholics are so uninformed that others say the Rosary just as yourselves. I am Episcopalian (and an ex cradle Catholic) and we say the rosary.

O.S. Luke · #45 Apr 8, '07, 11:24 am

Dwight Longenecker wrote a Catholic response to C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, in his book More Christianity. An excerpt from his book:

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...the rosary is not a strict law for Catholics to follow. Many good Catholics don't use the rosary at all. On the other hand, many non-Catholics find the rosary very helpful. John Wesley prayed the rosary every day, as do many Anglicans, Lutherans, and Methodists today. The rosary is simply a devotional aid to prayer that many people find helpful. - Chapter Eight, "All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed," p. 222, More Christianity, © 2002, Our Sunday Visitor Publishing.

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