Mormons and the Pre-existance - Page 2

Asa Ben Judah · #16 Sep 3, '04, 8:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevem1

Forgive me for saying this, but don't the mormons have some other fairly strange beliefs? If I recall, they also believe that, upon death, those souls who enter heaven...have the potential to be spiritually equal to or even greater than God.

As I understand the issue Mormons worship ONE God even though there are many gods/Celestials dwelling in the Celestial Kingdom who serve and worship ONE God also, the Father of us all.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

Andyman1517 · #17 Sep 3, '04, 9:19 am

One of the main problems with mormon belief is that God had a begining at one point. To say this is to say that something created God, which certainly would not make him sovereign.

Asa Ben Judah · #18 Sep 6, '04, 1:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andyman1517

One of the main problems with mormon belief is that God had a begining at one point. To say this is to say that something created God, which certainly would not make him sovereign.

Mormons, they prefer to be called Latter-day Saints, do not accept the teaching that God, the Father and God the Son are the same being, so the notion that something created God is answered by saying God the Father begot God the Son, a doctrine totally unacceptable in Catholic teaching but not necessarily wrong.

"For unto which of the angels (celestials/gods) said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" (Hebrews 1:5)

and

"Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:3-6)

I think the important thing to remember is that salvation is only achieved by calling on the name of Jesus Christ, belonging to this or that denomination is secondary. We are a part of the wider phenomenon of Christianity first, Churchianity is secondary in much the same way as John the Baptist was the forerunner.

Beloved, we should love one another, he who does not love does not know God.

Ahimsa · #19 Sep 6, '04, 2:30 pm

I've been following this thread with some interest, to say the least. I'm not Catholic (at least, not yet); my beliefs are more accurately labeled as Hindu.

If the Second Council really did not say anything about pre-existence of the soul, then that means that there has been no conciliar decision on either pre-existence or reincarnation (and by "reincarnation", I mean a theory of reincarnation that would be compatible with resurrection).

I was perusing the CAF site, and I found this:

Quote:

Members of what is commonly called the "New Age" movement often claim that early Christians believed in reincarnation. Shirley MacLaine, an avid New Age disciple, recalls being taught: "The theory of reincarnation is recorded in the Bible. But the proper interpretations were struck from it during an ecumenical council meeting of the Catholic Church in Constantinople sometime around A.D. 553, called the Council of Nicaea [sic]" (Out on a Limb, 234–35).

Historical facts provide no basis for this claim. In fact, there was no Council of Nicaea in A.D. 553. Further, the two ecumenical councils of Nicaea (A.D. 325 and A.D. 787) took place in the city of Nicaea (hence their names)—and neither dealt with reincarnation. What did take place in A.D. 553 was the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople. But records from this Council show that it, too, did not address the subject of reincarnation. None of the early councils did.

The closest the Second Council of Constantinople came to addressing reincarnation was, in one sentence, to condemn Origen, an early Church writer who believed souls exist in heaven before coming to earth to be born. New Agers confuse this belief in the preexistence of the soul with reincarnation and claim that Origen was a reincarnationist. Actually, he was one of the most prolific early writers against reincarnation! Because he is so continually misrepresented by New Agers, we have included a number of his quotes below, along with passages from other sources, all of which date from before A.D. 553, when the doctrine of reincarnation was supposedly "taken out of the Bible."

I'm tempted to say one could believe in not only pre-existence, but also a suitably modified form of reincarnation, and still be a good Catholic. I won't actually say so: many Church Fathers spoke out against reincarnation, but not infallibly (right? or am I mistaken here?), and, in my opinion, they rejected certain versions of reincarnation, but not all. It does seem that there is some wiggle room in this area.

I have to say that if some version of reincarnation were at least theoretically possible within Catholicism (adherence to which might place on the border adjacent to heresy, but not over the line), that I would seriously consider becoming Catholic this very second.

Ahimsa

rich123456 · #20 Sep 6, '04, 2:36 pm

God Created us, and then breathed life into us. Mormon theology teaches that we did live in heaven before we came down to earth.
But they also teach that Jesus is Lucifers brother. This is what I to was taught at a very early age. Jesus, who is Jesus is the place to begin with those of the LDS faith. Because who Jesus is, is at the very center of what it means to be a Christian. I was taught Mormonism at a very early age. it was not until I was older that I found Christ. The only thing good in me is Him who breathed life into me. This is where I began to find peace. In good times as well as in bad.
www.catholic-rcia.com

Asa Ben Judah · #21 Sep 8, '04, 3:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich123456

God Created us, and then breathed life into us. Mormon theology teaches that we did live in heaven before we came down to earth.
But they also teach that Jesus is Lucifers brother. This is what I to was taught at a very early age. Jesus, who is Jesus is the place to begin with those of the LDS faith. Because who Jesus is, is at the very center of what it means to be a Christian. I was taught Mormonism at a very early age. it was not until I was older that I found Christ. The only thing good in me is Him who breathed life into me. This is where I began to find peace. In good times as well as in bad.
www.catholic-rcia.com

I rejoice in the confession that one has found Christ, that is the purpose of life.

May I elaborate on a few points.

Lucifer became the Devil or Satan, this being was not created evil so when he was the brother of Jesus he was GOOD.

Jesus Christ IS at the very centre of the Mormon faith, Lucifer who has become the Devil or Satan is at the very centre of this world.

rich123456 · #22 Sep 8, '04, 5:09 am

In Christianity and very much in Scripture, God through Jesus Created Lucifer a good angel, but he wanted equality with God.
This is the fall of this good angel, the fall of our first parents and the fall of each one of us. To move away from the grace of God, His Glory, that which gives us life in order to attain our own Glory that which results in death. For there is no life apart from God.

Colossians 1:15-20 Regarding Jesus:
file:///C:/Program%20Files/Jesus_sit...rs_Christ.html
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him (all) things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether (thrones or powers) or rulers or authorities; (all) things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Jesus is the Truth, we as His creation can only come to know this truth and in this truth be set free from ourselves in oeder to live in Him.

God Bless
Rich

rich123456 · #23 Sep 8, '04, 5:13 am

"When I saw him, Christ, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

Exporter · #24 Sep 10, '04, 4:27 pm

I asked a question similar to the one originally asked , because of Ephesians1:5-6. There is another passage that says the Trinity knew us before they created the World.

I can't remember all the very good Doctrine that was presented to me from The Catechism of the Catholic Church, but very good apologists did say God creates our Souls at the moment the zygote is formed that will be us individually.

God Does Not have a little Heavenly playground for souls that he created earlier, then he snaps one of those souls down into a zygote, No! Your soul is created when your zygote was made - so the best we have say.

Sophie · #25 Sep 27, '04, 6:54 am

And let's not forget where Mormons believe we all pre-existed. On a planet called Kolob. There is even a sub-division of homes in Utah named, "Kolob Country Living"!!!! Believe it or not.

Exporter · #26 Sep 27, '04, 7:34 am

What I about to write IS NOT Mormon, it IS Catholic.

I asked earlier if our spirits (soul) was created before God created the earth. I was wondering if human's souls had lived in heaven before it, that soul, was put into our bodies.

I had many people tell me that our soul is created the instant that we were bodily created....at fertilization. I don't think there is a heavenly "sandbox" where infant souls are waiting to be put into humans.

I don't think it is a very important question now.