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  #46  
Old Jun 12, '07, 1:42 pm
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

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Originally Posted by Chefboy View Post
Amazingly you pass your judgement so easily while sitting behind your computer. Who are you to say I have sinned? Would you not be better served by visiting the imprisoned in an act of corporal mercy, or is it to easy to feel as though I am an ignorant sinner so you can cover two bases of spiritual works with one stone.
I certainly visit the prisoners; one of my favourite people just got out, and he has even completed RCIA. (He gets it, that he can't marry a divorced woman.)

Quote:
Cast your line whereever it suits you but beware of the implications you use for bait. That truly would be more grevious then a debate over marriage to a divorced woman.
Justify yourself all you want. God is your judge; not me. God calls the marrying of a divorced woman to be "adultery" - we can wish and wish that it were not so, but if wishes were fishes, beggars would feast - wishing does not change reality.

Do not confuse God with Santa Claus - when the Age of Mercy comes to an end and the Judgement Day comes, souls will fall into Hell like snowflakes in a December blizzard, and every single and last one of them will be saying, "But it felt like the right thing to do, at the time! I don't understand why God didn't make an exception in my ever-so-special situation - doesn't He understand that I just had to break His laws, because of my feeeelings ... "

The only human being who has to go to Heaven is already there - God's victory is already complete in Mary. We are just extra icing on the cake - we are not "necessary" to God, and He does not "have" to save us - if we sin, and remain obstinate in our sin, God is not "required" to do anything for us. We have free will to do whatever we want, and He will not stop us - not even from going to Hell.
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  #47  
Old Jun 12, '07, 1:55 pm
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

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Originally Posted by Chefboy View Post
This is good. Matthew 5-31/32 Unless the marriage is an unlawful one. - now I ask you to please show me in the bible what constitutes an unlawful marriage.
An unlawful marriage would be one where the parties to the marriage were brother and sister, where one or both parties were already married to someone else, where one or both parties were incapable of keeping their vows due to a pre-existing bad habit or mental illness, and where one or both parties had no idea of the meaning of the promises they were making, due to being drunk or high at the time of the wedding, or mental illness of some kind, or else if the person was too young to understand what was going on.
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  #48  
Old Jun 12, '07, 2:11 pm
YADA YADA is offline
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

Just some observations on the tone of the discourse and the topics of discussion.

We all need to be charitable, all of us struggle with our own areas of sinfullness. As a Christian community we all need to help each other to overcome the temptations that life presents us.

Chef, it was you who in your OP implied that you knew your living arrangement lacked a proper form and placed you at odds with the appropriate married state and in opposition to the teaching authority and laws of the Church. The other posters did not 'label' you a sinner nor cast stones upon yor marriage.....While several posts may seem rude and cold, uncharitable or how you might characterize them....please remember that it is hard to judge the poster's real tone, the same words might sound positively pastoral in person.......

Also, your discussion regarding the 'next attempt' at an annulment reveals that in fact there have not been two annulmments denied....what there has been [apparently] is two discussions with a priest [or priests]. Individual priests do not hear annulment cases, only a diocesan tribunal can hear annulments. An individual priest can make rulings that are clear and inabiguous like a lack of form [two catholiccs who marry in front of a justice of the peace....not validly married] Other cases must be heard by Canon lawyers.

Except for very rare cases [I have not ever heard of a case] all testimony is presented in written form, it is not like Law & Order on TV. A former spouse cannot prevent a hearing by uncooperation. Former spouses do have rights, some of which can be very surprising.....for example the spouse who is not the one seeking the annulment but who resides in a different diocese has the right to have the annulment jurisdiction changed to their diocese even if that spuse is not catholic. They cannot stop the process but they can change the venue [for some reason I found this interesting]. Also, both parties are represented by an advocate and there is a third advocate who represents the marriage bond [they are called 'the defender of the bond'].

I am sorry that your wife had a terrible experience discussing her first marriage.....contact the chancellry office and obtain the necessary forms......The questions are formidable and the question forms are sent to the applicant, the former spouse and the witnesses that both of them choose.

Good Luck, if I were you and your wife, I would read the Canon Laws about marriages adn tribunals, read the catechism, check out your parish [or dioccesan] library for some 'catholic' books that discuss the annulment process....read all of the information and pamphlets that the diocese sends you.....

And your comment about the church implying that your children are 'illegitimate'...... a good clue that you did [and do] not have a good grasp of annullements and what they do and do not do. Even if a marriage is annulled, the children born of that marriage are legitimate, the Church fully recognizes that a civil ceremony took place. The same for your children. Even if the church never recognizes your marriage 'sacramentally' - the church recognizes that you and your wife are married civilly and any children are legitimate. God of course recognizes all life as legitimate - He is the author of life and knew [and called] your children by name before you and your wife knew you were expecting........

I have been through a two plus year annullment process myself. I work with RCIA and we have annulment issues every year. You have my empathy and my prayers.....While I cannot change whatever the facts of your wifes first marriage are, I hope that the tribunal reaches its decision and is able to communicate the decision in a pastoral manner....without which true healing cannot begin. A proper understanding of your position will enable bot of you to make life giving decisions for your family and yor spiritual health....God Bless, you are in His hands......have faith.....pray
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  #49  
Old Jun 12, '07, 2:32 pm
laudamus te laudamus te is offline
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

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Originally Posted by Chefboy View Post
Some people just cant let go. Please tell me what happens to my soul according to the church if I continue to love my wife while embracing and facilitate a happy and loving home for our children. To me it sounds like you believe I would live an eternal life in HELL. Is that what you are saying. YES/NO?

If that is the case then you are additionally saying that everyone who is not Catholic is going to hell?

Do you see the can of worms you are about to open. Be careful as to your answer as I'm certain that the bible talks about the self righteous.
Either you have a very poor understanding of the Catholic faith to be asking those questions, or you are fishing for an argument here. I'll say no more to you about this, because if you really are sincere you will need to open your eyes to see the truth, and not just your personal version of the truth. Otherwise, we're obviously talking to a brick wall.
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  #50  
Old Jun 12, '07, 2:41 pm
truthnlight truthnlight is offline
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

No matter how evil our sins, there is pardon for them. God forgave David for his adultery, dishonesty, and murder (2 Samuel 12:13, Psalm 51). Simon Peter's denial of our Lord accompanied by profanity was forgiven (Matthew 26:74-75). The apostle Paul was forgiven of his preconversion merciless persecution of Christians (Acts 9:1). Just about every possible sin is listed somewhere in the New Testament. And every one of them falls into the category of forgivable.

Mat
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Jesus had healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and could not speak, "so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw" (Matthew 12:22). The multitudes following Jesus began to say, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can He?" They wondered if He was the Messiah.
On the other hand, the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons. Jesus' response to their accusation led Him to conclude what He said in Matthew 12:31-32. In this passage He refers to blasphemy.

The term blasphemy may be defined "defiant irreverence." We would apply the term to such sins as cursing God or willfully degrading things considered holy. In this passage the term refers to the declaration of the Pharisees who had witnessed undeniable evidence that Christ was performing miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet they attributed the miracles to Satan. In the face of irrefutable evidence they ascribed the work of the Holy Spirit to that of Satan.

"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16

John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

1st Corinthians 3:11, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

1John001:007 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
001:008 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
001:009 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
001:010 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
.
002:001 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
002:002 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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  #51  
Old Jun 12, '07, 2:42 pm
deb1 deb1 is offline
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

i think that yada has given you excellent advice, chefboy.


i understand that this is difficult for you. but it sounds as if you have a desire to do what is right or else why seek out a Catholic forum to find a solution?

some of the answers might seem harsh, but I really don't think that the respondents are trying to judge you. many have sympathy for your plight.

it is sometimes difficult using the written word, to convey certain sentiments.

talk to your priest and begin the annulment process. that is a good first step.
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  #52  
Old Jun 12, '07, 2:48 pm
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

OP has been invited many times to investigate links given explaining annulments and Church teaching on marriage, and correcting his misapprehensions. Ball is in his court whether he wants to accept the judgement and teaching of the Church (not of forum members) or continue to rely on his own judgement. I suggest we close the thread because he apparently has decided not to do any further research on the lines suggested by many here hoping to helpful, not condemnatory.
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  #53  
Old Jun 12, '07, 3:10 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

Chefboy, your final destination will be what you yourself choose--either the will of the Father (Heaven) or any will which opposes the Father's will (Hell).

It certainly seems that you have been told that according to the teachings of the Church--which as a Catholic you are bound to uphold--your current marriage, while a 'legal' marriage, is not a valid sacramental marriage. As such, you and your wife, to follow Catholic teachings, and the will of the Father, must do whatever the Church teaches, regardless of how difficult it might be or how you might feel or your own opinion that since you 'love' your wife and children, and your wife's previous husband by his 'abandonment' did NOT love your wife and their child, then YOUR marriage is good and should be accepted by the Church, while the previous one is 'bad' and should be rejected.

Am I right here in thinking that this is basically what you are arguing or asserting--that your 'love' and fidelity should be the basis for authenticating a marriage, regardless of whether your partner had been married before? I can understand that with society pretty much holding that view (witness the ever-growing group of people who marry, divorce, marry, divorce etc.), in fact with marriage itself being presented by divers groups as being solely for 'love', and that any two people who 'love' each other are entitled to be recognized as being 'validly married' and should thus enjoy any privileges of marriage, whether sacred or secular, that it seems absolutely cruel and inhuman that someone or some 'group' would 'pass judgment' on 'loving people' and 'deny them' based on 'stupid rules' rather than let 'love rule all'.

But the fact is that love, far from ruling all, is a very unstable and unreliable guide or measurement of the validity of a marriage or indeed a relationship. Your wife and her first husband once 'loved' each other, and that love certainly did not last on his part. But the fact that it didn't last shouldn't mean that since you are claiming that your love 'is' lasting should make your marriage valid and not the first. For what if (heaven forbid) your love then wanes? Does that mean your marriage was only valid for so long as the love lasts, and that once it is gone, you are (both) free to seek another 'valid' marriage in the name of love?

Is marriage something final, irrevocable, indeed instituted by God, a sacred covenant which binds the two together into 'one flesh', a sacrament which exists not only for 'love' but for the procreation of children, the institution of a family, mutual aid and comfort, something which outlasts mere sexual lust or feeling and transmutes these into the perfect love and charity of Christ Himself. . .or a rite of passage or social event mainly to gratify 'love' and which can be tossed aside when either partner chooses to 'fall out of love' and to exit the marriage?

You see, you already know how awful it is when the latter is chosen--you know the suffering your wife went through when her first marriage collapsed. You knew when you chose to marry her, knowing that she had been married before and her marriage not annuled, that you were not going to be able to live according to Church teachings. You may have felt it 'didn't matter then'. . .but it matters now. But the Church is not going to change not just 2000 years of tradition but the God-given sacrament of marriage around because you and many others find themselves realizing, too late, that you are in marriages which are not valid.

Because it isn't about feeling--God does not want us simply to 'be happy' because there are many, many ways in which our 'happiness' separates us from God. Many, many things which seem wonderful to us as creatures of the flesh but which kill the spirit. God wants us to be happy by knowing Him, loving Him, and serving Him. . .and serving Him means being obedient to Him, not demanding that He turn around and grant us wishes like a genii in a bottle. And this is not to sound mean, or to belittle your suffering. If my decree of nullity had not been granted, I would have continued then--as I continue now--to remain celibate (I've probably been celibate nearly as many years as you have been alive). Easy? No. Necessary? Yes.
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  #54  
Old Jun 12, '07, 3:10 pm
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Unhappy Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

Thank you for your kind words. You are correct when you say I do not have an understanding of annulment and what it takes to accomplish it. I would recommend that you re-read some of the answers given me by some of the posters. Their choice of words by no means come across as loving and comforting to anyone that finds themself in my situation.

Additionally, I am at a loss how anyone can infer that they have an understanding of the annulment process because they are involved in RCIA and have dealt with it many times. This is a spiritual journey that I would submit GOD has provided to all of us with free will to make our own decisions. In the end he will be the judge as to whether or not we made the morally correct decisions. To that end it is very difficult to put your spiritual life in the hands of people who condemn you.
Catechism of the Catholic Church pg 409-1639/40
The Celebration of the Marriage between man and woman is is a "bond that has been established by God himself in such a way that a marriage concluded and consummated between baptized persons can never be dissolved. This bond, which results from the free human act of the spouses and their consummation of the marriage, is a reality, henceforth irrevocable, and gives rise to a covenant guaranteed by Gods fidelity. The Church does not have the power to contravene this disposition of divine wisdom".

So now the church says in another breath that it will allow annulments in certain situations as noted above and in other situations it will allow the spouses to live physically separate lives. pg. 411 1649

Perhaps the lucky ones are able to prove there innocents in the Tribuanal. What about the woman or men who end up with a cheating spouse for no apparent reason. It was not planned?
What about the individuals who are abandoned by their spouses and end up having to bring up children by themselves. Are the children subject to Catholic law in the sense that they cannot enjoy the presence of a father in the home? Is the woman scarred for life because the church does not recognize the fact that she was abandoned. Please people think with your brains and stop following blindly.

I really must get on with my daily life so please forgive me if I do not respond for awhile. I have put alot of time into this discussion and it seems as though Im chipping away at the Hoover Dam with a toothbrush. I am sure that there are many others who feel the same way I do. Most of them have already left the Church. I really want to stay, but I will not practice hypocrisy like so many in our church do on a daily basis.
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  #55  
Old Jun 12, '07, 3:24 pm
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

Chefboy, for what it's worth, the RSV translation of Matthew 5:32 reads: "But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

The Douay Rheims translation reads: "But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery."

Go to your priest and do the best you can trying to obtain an annulment for your wife's previous marriage. God will see that you trying to make amends. I pray God's speed for you during the process!
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  #56  
Old Jun 12, '07, 3:29 pm
Chefboy Chefboy is offline
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

Tantum, thank you for your time in writing something meaningful. Your words for the first time on this thread give me something to think about. Your thoughts inspire me to search for what is truly Gods Plan for me. The Catholic Church or My Family------I really dont believe Celibacy is an option for me or anyone that is married. So my choice is more limited then someone who would consider celibacy.

I hope I am able to have this annuled otherwise I have a serious choice to make since it doesn't seem like I am going to change The Church.

Once again, Thank you.
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  #57  
Old Jun 12, '07, 3:54 pm
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

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Originally Posted by Chefboy View Post

Perhaps the lucky ones are able to prove there innocents in the Tribuanal. What about the woman or men who end up with a cheating spouse for no apparent reason. It was not planned?
What about the individuals who are abandoned by their spouses and end up having to bring up children by themselves. Are the children subject to Catholic law in the sense that they cannot enjoy the presence of a father in the home? Is the woman scarred for life because the church does not recognize the fact that she was abandoned. Please people think with your brains and stop following blindly.

I really must get on with my daily life so please forgive me if I do not respond for awhile. I have put alot of time into this discussion and it seems as though Im chipping away at the Hoover Dam with a toothbrush. I am sure that there are many others who feel the same way I do. Most of them have already left the Church. I really want to stay, but I will not practice hypocrisy like so many in our church do on a daily basis.
Chefboy, I'd like to respond to this part of your post.

Nearly 30 years ago, my mother was that wife who was abandoned by her husband after his infidelity. My mother then had the responsibility of raising 4 children on her own, without the presence of my father. But guess what. It was not the Church who created that situation for us-- it was my FATHER! My father. No one else. My father chose, of his own volition and with full knowledge, to abandon his wife and children. So yes, we spent our childhood in a home without a father. We also spent our childhood in a home with a mother who valued us, our eternal safety, and her own soul above any earthly pleasures she would have had had she brought another man into her home.

Was my mother scarred for life for following Church teachings, even when she did not understand them? I seriously doubt it. All these years later, she is a vibrant, loving, caring, funny grandmother, mother, and friend. She has tremendous love to give, and she receives it back in abundance.

Oh, and the Church certainly did (and does) recognize that she (and we) were abandoned. It has been the Church and my mother's devotion to the Blessed Mother that brought her through all those tough times and strengthened her to enable her to carry that heavy burden that she never asked for, but which was placed on her nonetheless.

May God bless you, your wife, and your children. May the love of Jesus Christ and the counsel of the Holy Spirit strengthen you to carry this burden that has been placed upon you, as well.
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  #58  
Old Jun 12, '07, 4:04 pm
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

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Originally Posted by Chef boy View Post
Tantum, thank you for your time in writing something meaningful. Your words for the first time on this thread give me something to think about. Your thoughts inspire me to search for what is truly Gods Plan for me. The Catholic Church or My Family------I really dont believe Celibacy is an option for me or anyone that is married. So my choice is more limited then someone who would consider celibacy.

I hope I am able to have this annulled otherwise I have a serious choice to make since it doesn't seem like I am going to change The Church.

Once again, Thank you.
actually tantrum's advice was not different then anyone else's on this thread. the only difference is that he didn't mention the word celibacy.

is that your main problem with the advice on this thread. that you might have totemporarily stop having sex with your wife?
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  #59  
Old Jun 12, '07, 4:20 pm
Chefboy Chefboy is offline
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

I am glad things worked out.

It seems the moderator has taken it upon themselves to move my thread to Moral Theology. That is just wrong. I intended it to be in the traditional forum.

I will have to move along now as the Forum Moderators are now Censoring my questioning of Traditional Values of the Church.

This is not a moral issue for me. It is a question of interpretation of the bible which The Catholic Church has made a tradition of.

It is a question of whether or not I remain a Catholic. It is a question concerning the Tradition of Matrimony in the Catholic Church. I guess the moderators can not make an argument for the tradition so they choose to make it a moral issue. Shame on them.
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  #60  
Old Jun 12, '07, 4:36 pm
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Default Re: Am I going to Hell for being a Father?

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I am glad things worked out.
It is a question of whether or not I remain a Catholic. It is a question concerning the Tradition of Matrimony in the Catholic Church. I guess the moderators can not make an argument for the tradition so they choose to make it a moral issue. Shame on them.
Whether or not fornication can be justified IS a moral issue.

Morever, many "Traditional" Catholics think that annulments have been handed out like candy since Vatican II and that the standards used to be a lot higher.

You asked for a Biblical example of an unlawful marriage. Well, here's one -- Herod. John the Baptist frequently told Herod he was in an unlawful marriage because he had married his brother's wife. Herod responded by cutting off John the Baptist's head.

If you believe that the Catholic Church is the one True Church founded by Jesus Christ, and you leave it for another, you are putting your soul in danger. I would think and pray long and hard about your decision. Do you want to leave the Catholic Church so you can have sex and possibly go to hell, or do you want to stay in the Catholic Church as a celibate man and go to heaven?

I would talk to a canon lawyer or a priest specializing in annulments so that your wife's case can go to a Tribunal, since it sounds like that hasn't happened.

I hope this works out for you and that you make prayerful decisions regarding your current life situation.
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