Roman Rite

[TantumErgo90]

I am so happy about Summorum Pontificum. Since the Tridentine and Pauline Uses are now both normative and equal, has the nature of the Roman Rite changed?

[bear06]

Originally Posted by TantumErgo90

I am so happy about Summorum Pontificum. Since the Tridentine and Pauline Uses are now both normative and equal, has the nature of the Roman Rite changed?

Interestingly enough, I remember something about ordinary and extraordinary mentioned although I would think they would be considered equal because they are both the Mass.

[Hellisreal]

Originally Posted by bear06

Interestingly enough, I remember something about ordinary and extraordinary mentioned although I would think they would be considered equal because they are both the Mass.

Exactly how I heard it.

[TantumErgo90]

I didn't mean to go against the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form. By normative and equal I meant that they are now the one Mass of the One Roman Rite. And Normative I meant that there is no longer a need for an indult, because the Tridentine Use is now restored with all of its rights. By the way, extraordinary doesn't mean rare, special, or anything that makes it less than the Pauline Use. It just means it is not the "common" or "default" form of the Mass in a parish, unless it is a personal church.

[Steadfast]

The Novus Ordo is still the ordinary rite.

The 1962 is the extraordinary rite.

[TantumErgo90]

I never denied that the Ordinary form is the Pauline Use. I am just pointing out the the Traditional Use is no longer an indult! As of September 14, 2007, there will be no such thing as a Tridentine Indult Mass. In Art. 1 of Summorum Pontificum it says "...These two expressions of the law of prayer of the Church in no way lead to a division in the law of prayer of the Church, for they are two uses of the one Roman Rite". "Hae duae expressiones "legis orandi" Ecclesiae, minime vero inducent in divisionem "legis credendi" Ecclesiae, usunt enim duo usus unici ritus romani". Therefore, both uses are now normative and equal, meaning no longer under indult.

[Steadfast]

Originally Posted by TantumErgo90

I never denied that the Ordinary form is the Pauline Use. I am just pointing out the the Traditional Use is no longer an indult! As of September 14, 2007, there will be no such thing as a Tridentine Indult Mass.

Absolutely.

But the Pope in the MP seems to have been very careful in talking about the rites in relation to each other reserving to the newer rite the descriptive "ordinary" meaning, it would seem, "normal", "main" or "predominant".

[TantumErgo90]

Equal meaning - Allowed, not an exception, full rights of the Roman Rite. Certainly, the Pauline Use is "main" and "predominant". However, both rites are now normal in the sense that you don't need permission to celebrate either.

[bear06]

By the way, extraordinary doesn't mean rare, special, or anything that makes it less than the Pauline Use. It just means it is not the "common" or "default" form of the Mass in a parish, unless it is a personal church.

OK, I've got to chuckle here because some people might object to your broad term if we were referring to Extraordinary Ministers of the Holy Eucharist.

[CatholicNick]

Originally Posted by bear06

OK, I've got to chuckle here because some people might object to your broad term if we were referring to Extraordinary Ministers of the Holy Eucharist.

Different context and meaning to the word extraordinary in the case of EMHCs.

I refer you to Fr.Z and what he said regarding this:

“Extraordinary”, here, does NOT mean “rare” or “unusual” or “special”. It simply means “out of the common order”. If we turn to how the Church uses Latin in, for example, a pretty good Latinist, St. Jerome, the adverb extraordinarie means “with excessive frequency” (cf. On Ephesians 1 ad. 2, 13). It cannot be argued legitimately from the word “extraordinary” that use of the older forms must necessarily be “rare”. It can be quite regular, depending on the circumstances, while in the larger scheme of things the Novus Ordo remains now the usual way things are done.

From http://wdtprs.com/blog/2007/07/summo...-and-the-text/

[bear06]

Originally Posted by CatholicNick

Different context and meaning to the word extraordinary in the case of EMHCs.

I refer you to Fr.Z and what he said regarding this:



From http://wdtprs.com/blog/2007/07/summo...-and-the-text/

OK, I think this is all a bit silly. Extraordinary means outside of the ordinary in pretty much all cases. Suffice it to say that the rules regarding ordinary and extraordinary are defined by the Vatican in each case she uses it. My only point is that there is a difference in the uses. One is ordinary and one is extraordinary. They are not both ordinary.

To tell you the truth, I wish ordinary and extraordinary had been left out. It leaves me to wonder more.

Did anyone notice this link above?http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=166942

[Aramis]

Originally Posted by TantumErgo90

Equal meaning - Allowed, not an exception, full rights of the Roman Rite. Certainly, the Pauline Use is "main" and "predominant". However, both rites are now normal in the sense that you don't need permission to celebrate either.

But they are not equal; the '62 is not allowed for the easter tritium, and is limited to one mass per priest per day.

The priest is limited to one mass per day (presumably of either form, now), except sundays and holy days of obligation, where 2, or even three masses per priest are allowed per priest. (Code of Cannon Law, about 904-907.) Exceptions can be granted by the local Ordinary....

So in many urban parishes, with 4 or 5 masses per sunday, all but one will be the OF Mass, while one MIGHT be the EF Mass.

Of course, a pro-separation, bishop might establish a "personal parish" (or several) under a TLM-trained priest to "isolate and contain" the Traditionalists.

But one can probably expect the Mass of the Oils to remain OF, and several other key diocesesan functions as well.

[TantumErgo90]

The extraordinary form is allowed during the triduum in public celebrations of it. art. 2 only applies to private masses of both rites. A public mass (art. 5) may be said during the triduum using the extraordinary use. They are equal in these sense that the EF is not under indult (permitted but against the law) anymore.

[Genesis315]

Concerning the Roman rite, I think the new set-up creates more of a sense of liturgical continuity and branching out, instead of rupture. If we look at history, the usual way (albeit, not always) that the liturgy developed from the Last Supper until where it is today in all the Churches of the world, is that older forms were kept as new one's were introduced although sometimes along the way a form might die out and be overtaken by another older form (occasionally forms were authoritatively suppressed).

I think we see that continuity and branching out better now that the old form is present, the new is also, as well as other uses, such as the Anglican use and certain order-specific uses.