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  #31  
Old Jul 24, '07, 11:18 am
Philothea53 Philothea53 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Admin View Post
Karl's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Topic:

A Latin Mass Dream

==========
http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_070717.asp

I am such a big chicken! would it be wrong (first, would it be allowed) to copy this letter and send it to my Bishop? It sure says everything I wish I could say.
__________________


A Catholic who supports a pro-abortion candidate when there
is a pro-life alternative cannot present themselves for
Holy Eucharist without repentence, confession and absolution.
  #32  
Old Jul 24, '07, 12:52 pm
CJT CJT is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

I'm old enough to remember the Latin Mass. I recall daily Mass at which a disheveled priest strolled into the sanctuary and mumbled his way through the Sacred Mysteries in 12 minutes. "Low Mass" on Sunday--with sermon--clocked in around 35. Many parishioners loved it because he got them in and out quickly. The rite itself is neither reverent nor irreverent on its face; it's what the celebrant does with it that sets the tone.

As a youngster, I wasn't much interested in going to church. I believe the way we worshipped was a major part of the reason. There was something going on, yes; but I really never got it. The Eucharist simply never came alive to me until I heard it in my own language.

Your mileage may vary, of course, and if you prefer the Latin, God bless you and go for it! However, I shall politely decline the invitation to participate in the extraordinary form of the Mass. I find the presence of God in the ordinary form of the Mass, and don't need to go looking for that which I have already found.

Pax!
  #33  
Old Jul 24, '07, 7:48 pm
fxavier fxavier is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

What is rarely mentioned and is of prime importance in releasing the Motu Proprio is that the Traditional Rite (Missal of St. Pius V / Bl. John XXIII) is of Apostolic origin. As such, it is part of the deposit of faith, and can never be abrogated. It may develop organically with the Church, but may never be taken away.

One can say that the Missale of 1962 / 1965 is clearly the V2 Mass. Why? Because V2's Sacrosanctum Concilium asked for an organic change in the Mass, thus preserving its Apostolic character.
  #34  
Old Jul 24, '07, 7:59 pm
fxavier fxavier is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Oh.. one more thing..

The only Eucharistic prayer in the Traditional Mass is the Roman Canon (a.k.a. Eucharistic Prayer I in the New Mass, but almost always never used).

What is interesting is that Pope Innocent I attributes the Roman Canon to St. Peter himself!

Even more interesting, the Syrian Church of Antioch, a Church founded by St. Peter, has a very similar Canon!

Just amazing!

P.S. The whole point about the Traditional Mass is not the language. It's the Mass of the Apostles and Saints, given to us by Our Lord through the Apostles.
  #35  
Old Jul 24, '07, 11:03 pm
qmvsimp qmvsimp is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxavier View Post
Oh.. one more thing..

The only Eucharistic prayer in the Traditional Mass is the Roman Canon (a.k.a. Eucharistic Prayer I in the New Mass, but almost always never used).

What is interesting is that Pope Innocent I attributes the Roman Canon to St. Peter himself!

Even more interesting, the Syrian Church of Antioch, a Church founded by St. Peter, has a very similar Canon!

Just amazing!

P.S. The whole point about the Traditional Mass is not the language. It's the Mass of the Apostles and Saints, given to us by Our Lord through the Apostles.
So that I can understand you correctly, as long as the correct prayers are said, the language is irrelevant. Correct?
  #36  
Old Jul 25, '07, 12:13 am
fxavier fxavier is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

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Originally Posted by qmvsimp View Post
So that I can understand you correctly, as long as the correct prayers are said, the language is irrelevant. Correct?
The issue of Latin as a liturgical language is of course secondary to the Apostolic character of the Traditional Missae. It is not irrelevant, though.
  • Latin is still the primary liturgical language of the Roman Church. Check out V2's Sacrosanctum Concilium.
  • Many traditional chants are set according to the Latin words. Translations just don't do any justice to the settings.
  • Latin is valuable because its definitions and grammar do not shift much. It is more exacting as a language.
  • Latin is one of the more beautiful languages, with its cadence and conjugations and declensions making it a more poetic language.
  • Liturgical languages are a human phenomena. Perhaps it is a way for society to preserve its religious heritage. It may also be a way for society to reach the supernatural. Last that I can think of, it's a way for a society to divide profane space from sacred space.

The last point is interesting: the separation of profane and sacred space.

In the Traditional Latin Mass, the celebrant achieves this by saying the most intimate parts of the Mass in a low voice, and in Latin, thereby demonstrating the sanctity of the moment. He is saying: I take the immediate area around me and make it into a sacred space.

This idea about separation has been important in Christian (Catholic, Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Armenian, etc.) worship through the centuries. It all started in the early centuries with a 'liturgical curtain' that would be drawn before the epiklesis, so that no one would see the Consecration. This later evolved to rood screens and ikonostasis. The curtain is still used by Armenians today.

Other groups have their own liturgical languages: Church Slavonic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Ge'ez, Syriac, and Coptic amongst others.

Certainly, Latin has to be retained in the Liturgy. However, the Church must reflect on the correct balance between Latin and the vernacular, and the rationale for each change.

Remember, that the burden to prove the fruits of those wanting change rests on the one making the change. On this note, we must examine the last 40 years of experimentation with the vernacular.
  #37  
Old Jul 25, '07, 1:16 am
Joero Joero is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Maybe Vatican has foreseen the declining of people going to priesthood and the growing of populations. There are nations where priesthood are many while others are less. I think the purpose of the Latin Mass, is not the language per se, but the easier distribution of priests to other parts of the world inorder to celebrate mass and everybody could participate and understand for it would be in Latin universally. But I don't think it would be acceptable by the universal church. Only God knows !
  #38  
Old Jul 25, '07, 8:11 am
rush176 rush176 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

I vaguely recall the mass in Latin when I was a child with the priest and servers facing away from the congregation. I also remember the beautiful communion rail and integrated, ornate lecterns which were removed to comply with Vatican II. I think it must have taken our little country parish a while to change because I was born in 1959 and if the Latin Mass was gone after 1962 I would be surprised if I remember it from when I was 3. I do clearly remember when I was in first or second grade as an alter boy practicing the “prayers at the foot of the alter” in English at the beginning of Mass. That only lasted a short time until the current procedures of the mass were instituted.

Personally I am curious to attend a Latin Mass for nostalgia’s sake. I am skeptical that it will provide me with a new burst of faith or enlightenment so I doubt I will go often. If it works for some others, great. Honestly I never knew this was a big source of contention among some Catholics but evidently it was since the Pope took the time to address it. I suppose any reason to get more people attending mass more often and more unity within the Church is a reason for celebration.
  #39  
Old Jul 25, '07, 8:25 am
fxavier fxavier is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by rush176 View Post
I vaguely recall the mass in Latin when I was a child with the priest and servers facing away from the congregation. I also remember the beautiful communion rail and integrated, ornate lecterns which were removed to comply with Vatican II. I think it must have taken our little country parish a while to change because I was born in 1959 and if the Latin Mass was gone after 1962 I would be surprised if I remember it from when I was 3. I do clearly remember when I was in first or second grade as an alter boy practicing the “prayers at the foot of the alter” in English at the beginning of Mass. That only lasted a short time until the current procedures of the mass were instituted.

Personally I am curious to attend a Latin Mass for nostalgia’s sake. I am skeptical that it will provide me with a new burst of faith or enlightenment so I doubt I will go often. If it works for some others, great. Honestly I never knew this was a big source of contention among some Catholics but evidently it was since the Pope took the time to address it. I suppose any reason to get more people attending mass more often and more unity within the Church is a reason for celebration.

Hi Rush 176,

I have several comments.

First, the Priest doesn't "turn his back to the people" or "face away from the congregation". He "turns with the people to God". This is a very rich symbolism advocated by Benedict XVI as well as the Saints from the early Church Fathers to present day.

Second, V2 never asked for things like communion rails and high altars to be torn away. That was a forced interpretation imposed by liberals in the Church, like how abortion supposedly is in the U.S. Constitution. In fact, documents after V2 said that what is there should remain there.

Third, if you can challenge yourself to go to Latin Mass for three months straight, learn the prayers, and sing with your might, you will be unable to return to the New Mass on Sundays (a lot because of the state of the music).

Peace in Christ,
Will
  #40  
Old Jul 25, '07, 9:09 am
rush176 rush176 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxavier View Post
Hi Rush 176,

I have several comments.

First, the Priest doesn't "turn his back to the people" or "face away from the congregation". He "turns with the people to God". This is a very rich symbolism advocated by Benedict XVI as well as the Saints from the early Church Fathers to present day.

Second, V2 never asked for things like communion rails and high altars to be torn away. That was a forced interpretation imposed by liberals in the Church, like how abortion supposedly is in the U.S. Constitution. In fact, documents after V2 said that what is there should remain there.

Third, if you can challenge yourself to go to Latin Mass for three months straight, learn the prayers, and sing with your might, you will be unable to return to the New Mass on Sundays (a lot because of the state of the music).

Peace in Christ,
Will

Will
Thanks for the clarification. Of course facing away from the congregation and facing towards God could be seen as two sides to the same coin.

I am looking forward to our bishop scheduling the Latin masses though from his letter in our local Catholic newpaper he seems to imply it will not be widespread. I will wait and see.

I am always open to "new" ways to enhance my faith and worship experiences. If the Latin Mass helps me you can be sure I will be there regularly. Since I already get so much from the current Mass I don't see any downside only more ways to praise and worship our Lord.
  #41  
Old Jul 25, '07, 1:15 pm
jbastnagel1 jbastnagel1 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

I was born in 1956. I went to Latin Mass daily very early in grade school. I don't miss it, but I've noticed that I've readily recognized the Latin that has been worked into the vernacular Mass at times. I think that the Latin Mass might make me think more about exactly what is happening. Perhaps the old addage about getting more out of the things we put more into applies here.

Post V2 architecture was terrible here for awhile, resulting in a series of church structures resembling meeting halls rather than places of worship. I think this ties into the reverence observation a bit. The modern style seems to focus the congregation onto one another rather than the sacred sacrifice. Honestly, no one in my household would know what to do with a communion rail if one were to appear. I look forward to the Latin Mass, not as a steady diet, but as yet another gift from our deposit of faith. I fully expect that the priests who choose to celebrate the Latin Mass will do so with an enthusiasm and reverance that might have been somewhat lost in the vernacular.

Blessings,

Jim
  #42  
Old Jul 26, '07, 9:08 am
pprimeau1976 pprimeau1976 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Karl:

I have to say that I really don't understand why Latin is so important in the liturgy other than to keep an ancient language alive. To me, the way Mass is celebrated is much more important than what language it is in. Although I am WAY post Vatican II (born in 1976), I am still trying to figure out why the mass was changed so drastically. Why couldn't the 1962 missal just have been translated into English and the rubrics remained the same?

  #43  
Old Jul 26, '07, 11:43 am
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

I am not impying anything negative by this comment (since the new mass has only been around for about 38 years), but have there been any Saints who attended the Novus Ordo? I know thre are beatified. I do not htink there are , but with the "fast track" process, maybe 1 or 2 got through.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
  #44  
Old Jul 26, '07, 1:42 pm
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by trth_skr View Post
...have there been any Saints who attended the Novus Ordo? ...
I'll answer my own question. Here are two:

JoseMaria Escriva died in 1975

María Maravillas de Jesús died in 1974.

I presume both attended the Novus Ordo. Anyone know of others?

Here is the Vatican list of recent canonizations.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
  #45  
Old Jul 26, '07, 1:46 pm
qmvsimp qmvsimp is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of July 17, 2007

Mother Teresa has been beautified, but not canonized yet. She definitely attended the Novus Ordo.
 

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