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  #1  
Old Aug 1, '07, 2:30 am
Catholic Opinion Catholic Opinion is offline
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Default Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

WaPo has a nice article on the demand that seems to be out there for celebrating the Mass according to the Tridentine form. (CHT to the reader who e-mailed!)
EXCERPT:
Maureen Williamson, a manager at the Fort Collins, Colo.-based Roman Catholic Books, said 200 copies of its $155 deluxe edition priest's altar missal sold within two weeks of the papal announcement. She typically sells 20 to 35 a month.
"We're projecting we are going to sell more than 700 by the end of the year," she said. "Now that this Mass is able to be said by anyone at any time, priests and parishes have been ordering it."
And then there's this bit:
In the older rite, worshippers must kneel to receive Communion on theirtongues;
True.
the priest always leads the parishioners in facing east,rather than facing them;
No. He faces east at certain points, but not always. (He certainly doesn't preach the homily or distribute Holy Communion with his back to them, c'mon!)
and the rite is always in Latin.
True.
There areother differences in terms of liturgy, priestly vestments and themanner in which laity take part in the service.
True.
Women communicants ofthe Tridentine mass customarily cover their heads, although it is notmandated.
That may be true. I don't know of any references in the rite itself to women having their heads covered (though I can't say for certain since I haven't read or translated all of the introductory documents yet). It was the 1917 Code of Canon Law--which has been abrogated--that contained the head covering requirement. Pending a find of a mandate in the liturgical texts themselves, this statement would be accurate.

GET THE STORY.



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  #2  
Old Aug 2, '07, 6:07 pm
otjm otjm is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Re: the notes that the FSSP seminary trained 50 priests in the rubrics this summer. Let's assume that they do that once a semester, and that 50 is about all they can handle at a time; that makes for 150 per year. At that rate, to train 1/3 of all the priests in the US in 2006 will take about 93 years.

Just a thought on perspective.

another way to look at it; if 1/10th of all the priests were to be trained, 50 to a class, it would be 83 1/2 classes to be held.
At 3 classes per year, that works out to about 28 years of classes.

Now obviously, training can and will be done by more than just that one seminary.

Just a bit of perspective.
  #3  
Old Aug 2, '07, 6:22 pm
AlexV AlexV is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Numbers...numbers...numbers.

Go read the parable of the one sheep.

Meanwhile, spare us your constant downplaying of interest in the extraordinary usage. For someone who constantly asserts how he "doesn't have a horse in this race", you certainly post enough about it.
  #4  
Old Aug 2, '07, 6:47 pm
Abira Abira is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

I'm considering converting to Catholicism and when I heard about the Pope encouraging wider use of the Tridentine mass I initially wasn't sure. Is the homily in Latin too? as that would put me off...

other than that I have started to learn basic ecclesiastical Latin and basic phrases that I keep coming accross and quite like the idea of reserving a kind of language for use in church as it feels more reverent then using colloquial phrasing, which feels more accessible in one sense, but too 'chummy' in another. I'm undecided though...it's something quite alien to me.

I didn't know if this thread was about the congregation/ wider appeal of the old mass/ priests doing the mass etc, so I posted anyways lol.

S
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  #5  
Old Aug 2, '07, 6:52 pm
Philothea53 Philothea53 is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by otjm View Post
Re: the notes that the FSSP seminary trained 50 priests in the rubrics this summer. Let's assume that they do that once a semester, and that 50 is about all they can handle at a time; that makes for 150 per year. At that rate, to train 1/3 of all the priests in the US in 2006 will take about 93 years.

Just a thought on perspective.

another way to look at it; if 1/10th of all the priests were to be trained, 50 to a class, it would be 83 1/2 classes to be held.
At 3 classes per year, that works out to about 28 years of classes.

Now obviously, training can and will be done by more than just that one seminary.

Just a bit of perspective.
But can't Priests learn on their own? Do they get no Latin training in Seminary? Catn they teach each other in the Pasrish/Diocese they are assigned to?

And as you say there will be more than one seminary.

According to the list at http://consortium.villanova.edu/stat...seminaries.htm
there are 77 seminaries in the US, not counting seminaries in other countries. I think you are being way too pessimistic.
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  #6  
Old Aug 2, '07, 7:51 pm
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abira View Post
I'm considering converting to Catholicism and when I heard about the Pope encouraging wider use of the Tridentine mass I initially wasn't sure. Is the homily in Latin too? as that would put me off...
S
Hello Abira!

At the Latin Masses I've attended, the homily has always been in English. Also, the Gospel and previous reading are read in both Latin and English.

~~ the phoenix
  #7  
Old Aug 2, '07, 7:57 pm
otjm otjm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexV View Post
Numbers...numbers...numbers.

Go read the parable of the one sheep.

Meanwhile, spare us your constant downplaying of interest in the extraordinary usage. For someone who constantly asserts how he "doesn't have a horse in this race", you certainly post enough about it.
I just enjoy watching others exaggerate.

Aside from pride and stubbornness, part of the reason that we have the MP is that the bishops were not willing to look at the real numbers; they had the same blindness. They have presumed that the desire for the Missal of 1962 was so nomimal that they could just simply ignore it.

And by the way, I have read the parable of one sheep, and it has nothing to do with what I was talking about. It takes someone who can relax, and really stop and think about what I say, to realize the implications of it. I have been watching these threads, and there are a few who seem to think that come September 15th, a whole new dawn will instantly appear in its full glory. From the posts I read, some seem to understand that getting the 1962 Missal implemented is going to take time and patience; others are already trolling to see who they can write up for not instantly presenting them with the whole issue completely worked out.

And for all the insider knowledge you imply that you have, and the personal ear of Vatican poohbahs you hint of enjoying, I have to wonder if you won't be writing one of those letters. Whatever.

What I do know is that I am enjoying pulling your chain. It would be nice to have a discussion with you, but so far, you seem to only have one track - to tell me how little I know. I see a number of difficulties in getting it implemented in many places even without the presumed subtrefuge of the bishops. Perhaps you see none; but then, I don't have the ear of the poohbahs, either.
  #8  
Old Aug 2, '07, 8:12 pm
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by otjm View Post
Re: the notes that the FSSP seminary trained 50 priests in the rubrics this summer. Let's assume that they do that once a semester, and that 50 is about all they can handle at a time; that makes for 150 per year.
Wow - that is awesome! That means roughly 54750 more TLMS each year if they all offer the TLM daily, or roughly 7800 more TLMS each year even if they offer the TLM only weekly!!!

Anyone who knows the awesome channel of grace the TLM is can't help but be excited now!

Thanks!

DustinsDad

Quote:
Originally Posted by otjm View Post
...Now obviously, training can and will be done by more than just that one seminary.
You mean it's even better than above. Hoo Ha!!!
  #9  
Old Aug 2, '07, 8:37 pm
AlexV AlexV is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Yes, the old story. It will take "time to implement". Forget the fact that the very bishops who are most dragging their feet are the ones who have disregarded Vatican instructions to make sure seminarians could function even minimally in ecclesiastical Latin, the very language of their Rite. Forget the bishops who for years have systematically persecuted anyone in their clergy who dared show interest in the "dead" liturgy.

And yes, I have written my share of letters, and had my share of meetings. They've always ended quite positively.
  #10  
Old Aug 2, '07, 8:46 pm
ASimpleSinner ASimpleSinner is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by otjm View Post
Re: the notes that the FSSP seminary trained 50 priests in the rubrics this summer. Let's assume that they do that once a semester, and that 50 is about all they can handle at a time; that makes for 150 per year. At that rate, to train 1/3 of all the priests in the US in 2006 will take about 93 years.

Just a thought on perspective.

another way to look at it; if 1/10th of all the priests were to be trained, 50 to a class, it would be 83 1/2 classes to be held.
At 3 classes per year, that works out to about 28 years of classes.

Now obviously, training can and will be done by more than just that one seminary.

Just a bit of perspective.
Of course what else to be factored in:

1) There are other training programs being implimented.

2) The FSSP has grown by leaps and bounds. The seminary was full the day it was finished 8 years ago. By the time construction was complete, an appeal was being held for a fourth with....

It isn't unreasonable to suspect that during the summer months, many more programs could be added when the seminarians are gone. They have the "bed capacity".

3) In the next 93 years it is easy to imagine the FSSP opening more houses of formation

4) In the next 93 years it is easy to imagine more seminaries offering it besides OLG - both for seminarians and those already ordained.

5) In the next 93 years it is easy to imagine other orders opening programs like the Institute of Christ the King.

6) In the next 93 years it is easy to imagine priests who have been to the FSSP program, after some experience and practice, simply helping to train their brother priests.

7) In the next 93 years it is easy to imagine that - given the number of parishes and chapels that already use the EM - many of the priests being ordained tomorrow, are growing up with it today.

50 per class for now?

I'll take it!
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  #11  
Old Aug 2, '07, 8:49 pm
Abira Abira is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by the phoenix View Post
Hello Abira!

At the Latin Masses I've attended, the homily has always been in English. Also, the Gospel and previous reading are read in both Latin and English.

~~ the phoenix
lol, good...cos I can read, learn and speak anything but listening, and more importantly understanding, something at speed is a different ball game
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  #12  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:03 pm
Philothea53 Philothea53 is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

In my Diocese we have one Parish that has The TLM weekday mornings at 7:00 AM and on Sunday at 4:00 PM.

Paraphrasing from the bulletin at the time the TLM began at this particular Parish:

"It was through the efforts of (our Bishop) and at his invitation that the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter agreed to undertake an apostolate in the Diocese of..., sending Father ...., an associate of the Fraternity, to .... Because of the Bishop’s support and pastoral solicitude for us, we now have every Sunday and daily Masses under the 1962 Roman Missal here in....

With the arrival of Father..., to begin the ...apostolate of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter in the Diocese of ..., at the invitation of Bishop ..., every Sunday and daily Traditional Latin Masses resumed."


This occurred a few years ago and on the website there are quotes from the Motu Proprio of 1988: "As to the Traditional Latin Mass, public celebration of the Mass in Latin under the 1962 Roman Missal requires the permission of the diocesan bishop."

Since the Motu Proprio there has not been a word! Nothing.
I attend the Cathedral for Mass. Nothing. I called the Diocese newspaper. They are going to have an article about the MP but from the Bishop, nothing. At Mass, nothing.

I'm wondering if the idea is that having the apostolate is supposed to be enough? Weekdays at 7:00 AM - I work in an elementary school - I have to be there by 7:00 AM. Sundays at 4:00 PM - doable, but that is our family dinner time (seeing my adult sons on Sunday is very important to me.) The times were chosen so as to not conflict with the NO masses held at this church.

Should I write a letter? How do I approach this? I feel so uncomfortable. I don't think we are supposed to feel uncomfortable about this.
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  #13  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:10 pm
ASimpleSinner ASimpleSinner is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philothea53 View Post
Should I write a letter? How do I approach this? I feel so uncomfortable. I don't think we are supposed to feel uncomfortable about this.
Should you write a letter?

Yes.

Write this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philothea53 View Post
I Weekdays at 7:00 AM - I work in an elementary school - I have to be there by 7:00 AM. Sundays at 4:00 PM - doable, but that is our family dinner time (seeing my adult sons on Sunday is very important to me.) The times were chosen so as to not conflict with the NO masses held at this church.
Then point out that you want to attend this Mass, but the times are very bad for you.

Of course what hasn't sunk in, to a lot of people - especially me - is that the bishop will be out of the equation in a certain sense after September. You and some likeminded faithful will be totally free to request the EM from any priest in the diocese wihtout special recourse or permission to the diocese.
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Old Aug 2, '07, 9:16 pm
Philothea53 Philothea53 is offline
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Default Re: Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASimpleSinner View Post
Should you write a letter?

Yes.

Write this:



Then point out that you want to attend this Mass, but the times are very bad for you.

Of course what hasn't sunk in, to a lot of people - especially me - is that the bishop will be out of the equation in a certain sense after September. You and some likeminded faithful will be totally free to request the EM from any priest in the diocese wihtout special recourse or permission to the diocese.

Something just occurred to me while reading your response: maybe the Bishop is staying out of it and leaving to the people and their Priests. Maybe the Priests aren't saying anything cause they are waiting for the people to say something. Hmmmm. I think I need to speak up.
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  #15  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:21 pm
ASimpleSinner ASimpleSinner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philothea53 View Post
Something just occurred to me while reading your response: maybe the Bishop is staying out of it and leaving to the people and their Priests. Maybe the Priests aren't saying anything cause they are waiting for the people to say something. Hmmmm. I think I need to speak up.
Run with it.

Be humble and courteous and explain this is something you as a Catholic are asking for.

I don't know where you live or how many priests you have around ya, but if it were like my neck of the woods, finding someone - especially some of the "old timers" who would work with you, now that they don't need to deal with the hassle of getting special permission, may not be as hard as some are imagining.
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