Archbishop Vlazny of Portland on the Motu Proprio [Fr. Z] - Page 4

**rlg94086** · #46 Aug 6, '07, 6:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobP123

Is that how it started? I wondered how men wanted to hold hands with other men.

"Not that there is anything wrong with that."

Years ago, before I stopped with the handholding, our pastor had all the men come up to the altar on Father's Day for the Our Father (yes, all around the altar, like they do in some modernist parishes...it was California). I happened to glance at the guy on my left, and it was my primary competitor in the business world whose hand I was holding (we are on friendly terms). He didn't glance once or notice it was me. One of those "eyes straight forward" situations.

AlexV · #47 Aug 6, '07, 6:06 pm

Actually, the official rubrics of the 1962 Missal DO NOT scrupulously mandate the posture of the laity. Amazingly enough. It's not mentioned or covered.

As for hand-holding at the Pater Noster, I know of several communities where truly everyone wants to do it (mostly in small group settings, 20 odd people for a daily Mass in the round). Guess what? No problem. They're not forcing anybody to do it. It's not an issue I get all worked up about.

**rlg94086** · #48 Aug 6, '07, 6:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexV

Actually, the official rubrics of the 1962 Missal DO NOT scrupulously mandate the posture of the laity. Amazingly enough. It's not mentioned or covered.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that.

Quote:

As for hand-holding at the Pater Noster, I know of several communities where truly everyone wants to do it (mostly in small group settings, 20 odd people for a daily Mass in the round). Guess what? No problem. They're not forcing anybody to do it. It's not an issue I get all worked up about.

Well, it doesn't bother me either. I stopped when someone explained to me that it wasn't really proper. If I'm at a parish where everyone holds hands, I just don't do it, but I don't get worked up about others doing it.

What about everyone taking the Orans position and the gesturing during the "also with you" toward the priest? Also okay? In 99.89%...okay all...the parishes I attended prior to this one, it is the norm, not the exception...at all size Masses. Again, I just choose not to do it, but most people who identify themselves as "traditionalist" generally include these on their list of N.O. issues.

AlexV · #49 Aug 6, '07, 7:30 pm

I rarely attend the ordinary usage, so I am not witness to that sort of thing on a regular basis, but in general, no, what others do in the pews doesn't really impact me. Some people at extraordinary liturgies do weird things (as far as I'm concerned), but it's a big Church. The problem comes when we try to hyper-regulate what was for centuries left to the common sense of the faithful.

Walking_Home · #50 Aug 6, '07, 7:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexV

I rarely attend the ordinary usage, so I am not witness to that sort of thing on a regular basis, but in general, no, what others do in the pews doesn't really impact me. Some people at extraordinary liturgies do weird things (as far as I'm concerned), but it's a big Church. The problem comes when we try to hyper-regulate what was for centuries left to the common sense of the faithful.

Quote=AlexV
Actually, the official rubrics of the 1962 Missal DO NOT scrupulously mandate the posture of the laity. Amazingly enough. It's not mentioned or covered.

As for hand-holding at the Pater Noster, I know of several communities where truly everyone wants to do it (mostly in small group settings, 20 odd people for a daily Mass in the round). Guess what? No problem. They're not forcing anybody to do it. It's not an issue I get all worked up about.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Taking into account the liberties that are being taken with the NO--to where it seems---it has become a "custom" to innovate. By what you say above---the Extraordinary Mass could go the same way.

AlexV · #51 Aug 6, '07, 8:04 pm

My general advice to everyone is to avoid worrying about what one's neighbors in the pews are doing at Mass.

At one 1962 Mass I attend, one person keeps bowing down to the ground and kissing it in the back aisle. Another person beats their breast consistently from Consecration to Communion, without intermission. At an ordinary Mass I attended recently because I am friends with the celebrant, one person used the so-called orans posture over and over and another was praying the rosary all through Mass (doesn't only happen at 1962 Masses).

In the end, one can't worry about everything. Congregation posture doesn't move me to indignation, one way or the other. The Church long ago adopted the wisdom of realizing the people are often impossible, and it's a fool's errand to try to legislate their every breath and posture.

Walking_Home · #52 Aug 6, '07, 8:22 pm

If we follow the same "flow" that has led to the sad state of the NO Mass in many places---Why then all the fuss about having wider access to the TLM.

Huiou Theou · #53 Aug 6, '07, 10:29 pm

In rereading my last couple of posts, I wanted to add that Portland's diversity isn't all of the negative kind -- and that I don't mind the multicultural masses which highlight the dignity of all peoples.
I find these to be quite appropriate, and part of being all things to all people so that some may be saved.

I also agree with AlexV's opinion on the don't worry about your neighbor, -- with the exception that occasionally some of Portland's "finest" have come into church and it can be appropriate to have them removed by the civil authorities when they go a bit too far.

Vlazny's point about catechesis -- though -- is unfortunately on target. It applies to both the English mass and the TLM, but it my gut feeling is that it will be applied more strictly to the TLM -- probably on the basis that English is understood by the general public, so that the English prayers allow catechisis.

What opportunity for Catechesis is there for the TLM?

rpp · #54 Aug 7, '07, 8:56 am

Come on guys. Stay on topic.

What do you really think about Archbishops Vlazney's statement? Do you believe his document can be taken at face value?

**rlg94086** · #55 Aug 7, '07, 9:48 am

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpp

Come on guys. Stay on topic.

What do you really think about Archbishops Vlazney's statement? Do you believe his document can be taken at face value?

Huiou Theou · #56 Aug 7, '07, 8:40 pm

The archbishop is true to what he says he will do.
I have never seen Vlazny say one thing and do another.
So -- yes.

rpp · #57 Aug 8, '07, 10:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huiou Theou

The archbishop is true to what he says he will do.
I have never seen Vlazny say one thing and do another.
So -- yes.

While I do not doubt this, I have seen some interesting "spin".