Could the Latin Mass Save Western Civilization?

[LCMS_No_More]

Originally Posted by puzzleannie

this hype is exactly the type of thing that prompted me to star my other thread.

I fear proponents expect TLM to solve every problem from global warming to immodesty in fashion. I fear also that they expect TLM to solve every problem in the Church from the sex abuse scandal to musically illiterate liturgists. I think frankly anyone who does think so is living in a dream world.

IMO the base of support that once would have embraced either the NO in Latin or the restoration of the 1962 missal has eroded, not only through age and natural attrition, but because they have been driven away from the Church by perceived abuses, uncharitableness and the disappearance of everything that first drew them to the Church.

Your point is VERY well taken. Well said!

[Dempsey1919]

I think that the TLM will help to bring ultra traditionalists (SSPX etc) back into the mainstream Church, and I think that it will make traditionalists feel more comfortable.

However, I don't thhink that it will save Western Civilisation. In my opinion, the problems that are ruining Western Civilisation are:

Secularisation, resulting in poor morals.

The increase of Islam which threatens to change the face of Europe by the call for Sharia Law etc (35% of British Muslims want this already).

The declining power of the Church in world politics. The Catholic Church no longer has the power that it once did to influence political decision.

Personally, I think morals have a lot to do with it. The principals which made Western Civilisation great are disappearing.

[GregoryPalamas]

I think there are two ways in which the TLM helped and could possibly help again.

First, Latin once again would be a language that brought people together and reminds them of our common heritage.

Second, and perhaps even more importantly, the NO focuses upon a rather simple minded view of community. It is seen, whether or not it actually is, as a paliative to the Protestants. So the Protestants create ever more bizaar forms of "service" in order to distinguish themselves from Catholics. However, the traditional mass focuses upon sacrifice. Sacrifice can exist without community but community cannot really exist without sacrifice.

CDL

[Moneo]

Not by itself, no.

Originally Posted by puzzleannie
I fear proponents expect TLM to solve every problem from global warming to immodesty in fashion. I fear also that they expect TLM to solve every problem in the Church from the sex abuse scandal to musically illiterate liturgists. I think frankly anyone who does think so is living in a dream world.

I agree with this as well, but I now firmly believe it to be one more element in our religious, cultural, political and intellectual heritage which desperately needs to be recovered. But it is only one. The West, as others have pointed out, is suffering from a great many maladies at the moment.

So, speaking strictly about the religious and spiritual element for the moment, along with restoring the the Latin Mass to its rightful place in the Church, there has also got to be genuine renewal of catechesis, the renewal of the consecrated life and a sweeping reform of the clergy and the episcopacy. We're all going to have to do what we can, and then we're going to have to do a little more than that. And we're going to have to offer lots of prayer and penance until we achieve it. It won't be fast and it won't be easy, and some of us won't be around to see it firsthand, but we can save our civilisation.

Ora et labora, people.

[BobP123]

Originally Posted by Dempsey1919

I think that the TLM will help to bring ultra traditionalists (SSPX etc) back into the mainstream Church, and I think that it will make traditionalists feel more comfortable.

It's not a matter of comfort level. Some feel more comfortable learning the Latin that is the basis of the Mass; others feel more comfortable just sitting back and listening to lectors do the readings for them. When you say the mainstream Church, see, that's the problem. Its Mass is of the new order, the same words (in the same language, in fact) that appear on the dollar bill (or rather, a Federal Reserve Note, which is really an I.O.U.), and the same new (world) order that heads of state are talking about. This is I think what the author of the article is addressing in infering that Western civilization has been lost.

One needs to think past the SSPX here, unless it's part of the new order to eliminate.

[Brennan Doherty]

It built it, so I guess it's going to have to save it.

[mtr01]

Originally Posted by Dempsey1919

I think that the TLM will help to bring ultra traditionalists (SSPX etc) back into the mainstream Church, and I think that it will make traditionalists feel more comfortable.

However, I don't thhink that it will save Western Civilisation. In my opinion, the problems that are ruining Western Civilisation are:

Secularisation, resulting in poor morals.

The increase of Islam which threatens to change the face of Europe by the call for Sharia Law etc (35% of British Muslims want this already).

The declining power of the Church in world politics. The Catholic Church no longer has the power that it once did to influence political decision.

Personally, I think morals have a lot to do with it. The principals which made Western Civilisation great are disappearing.

I think there will be a cumulative effect. I tend to think that if the more traditionally minded Catholics are "united" we will begin to see the effects...slowly, but surely. It is the traditional Catholics who are having more children (who are being taught the tenets of the faith from an early age). These individuals will tend to grow up and have larger families, etc. Perhaps we will see a re-emergence of the traditional values that form the basis of Western civilization.

[BobP123]

Originally Posted by mtr01

I think there will be a cumulative effect. I tend to think that if the more traditionally minded Catholics are "united" we will begin to see the effects...slowly, but surely. It is the traditional Catholics who are having more children (who are being taught the tenets of the faith from an early age). These individuals will tend to grow up and have larger families, etc. Perhaps we will see a re-emergence of the traditional values that form the basis of Western civilization.

Yes. Tradition would seem to dominate in the long run. Those with the larger families would want to steer away from the new world order which has bred pro-abortion and pro-contraceptive politicians who will wonder in time why their kind didn't move civilization they way they anticipated. When your own Eucharist is used for political purposes, like pro-abort Catholics receiving communion, then the traditional forces move even harder.

[Brennan Doherty]

Originally Posted by BobP123

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../1876865/posts

Excellent article, thanks Bob. I agree that it not only involves the liturgy, but art, architecture, catechesis, priestly formation, etc. However, I do think the Traditional Latin Mass is the centerpiece. Without that (or at least more reverent liturgy) you are not going to have a revival of the others. They all go hand in hand. Usually you don't find mediocre liturgy and a stripped down church which has solid catechesis, for instance.

As a corollary to the article, here is a quote by Fr. George William Rutler in his book "A Crisis of Saints" (Ignatius Press) which illustrates what happens when we purposely lose what once was considered the Church's greatest treasure (as Cardinal Ratzinger once referred to the Old Mass):

A Liturgical Parable

The Hard Truth

....We seem to slip out of that golden sense of ultimate truth in two ways. The first is by losing any real awareness of the holy. The second is by denying that it has been lost. Without lapsing into cricitism that would be out of place, suffice it to say that the worship of holiness is weak in our culture, and the beauty of holiness has been smudged in transmission through the revised liturgy. For without impugning its objective authenticity in any degree, its bouleversement [Complete overthrow; a reversal; a turning upside down] of the traditional Roman rite marks the first time in history that the Church has been an agent, however unintentionally, in the deprivation of culture, from the uprooting of classical language and sensibility to wanton depreciation of the arts.

....It is immensely saddening to see so many elements of the Church, in her capacity as Mother of Western Culture, compliant in the promotion of ugliness.

[Malcolm McLean]

Originally Posted by mtr01

I think there will be a cumulative effect. I tend to think that if the more traditionally minded Catholics are "united" we will begin to see the effects...slowly, but surely. It is the traditional Catholics who are having more children (who are being taught the tenets of the faith from an early age). These individuals will tend to grow up and have larger families, etc. Perhaps we will see a re-emergence of the traditional values that form the basis of Western civilization.

I see the TLM as helping to salvage something from the wreck. For instance there will be a few more people who can still read Latin as a result.
Of course if you subscribe to the notion that history is bunk then you will see no connection between the ability to read Latin and anything of value. In fact the modern attitude is not so blunt. The modern student does value the idea of being a historian, but he rejects the discipline that he would need to achieve the goal. Hence history without Latin for the few, the da Vinci Code for the many.

Even science is in a very precarious position. In Britain the number of students is rising, but at the same time the smaller chemistry and physics departments are closing down, the larger ones cutting entry standards to try to attract more students. That's very telling.

Most atheists pay lip service to science, but very few of them actually have any interest in it (Richard Dawkins is an exception). You need to be at the top before the notion that science is the source of all value is emotionally tenable, and there are only a few chairs round college high tables. Technology is different, there are plenty of well paid jobs there. But technology is not science, merely something easily confused with it.

Governments are bad patrons of the sciences, because they are interested in the prestige that sciemce can bring but not in the actual results. Commercial companies are far worse. They are only interested in practical applications, which quickly turns into improvements to current products, which soon turns into an attempt to offload short-term staff training costs onto the university.

Then we've got the problem of social and family breakdown, which of course impacts on education. I don't have space to go into it here and that issue is widely recognised in Catholic circles. Even in secular discussions it is getting more common to hear people acknowledge that something has gone wrong.

All in all the West is in a mess. But in Britain a Traditional Catholic university is simply not a realistic option. There just aren't enough traditionalists to reverse the trend, though maybe there are enough to save something.