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  #91  
Old Jul 13, '07, 10:56 pm
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: New interview with Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
Originally Posted by paramedicgirl View Post
This is where we differ. The SSPX have been called an internal matter of the Church, not in complete communion with Rome. They are not outside the Church, neither are they protestants, heretics or any other nasty name that people want to inflict on them. News Flash. The SSPX are Catholics!!!!!
{Sigh}

Their bishops are excommunicate, their priests suspended ad divinis and without faculties, and the laity warned against the grave sin of schism by participation in their services.
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  #92  
Old Jul 13, '07, 10:59 pm
paramedicgirl paramedicgirl is offline
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Default Re: New interview with Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV View Post
{Sigh}

Their bishops are excommunicate, their priests suspended ad divinis and without faculties, and the laity warned against the grave sin of schism by participation in their services.
This is where we agree. Why the sigh?
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  #93  
Old Jul 13, '07, 11:02 pm
Walking_Home Walking_Home is offline
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Default Re: New interview with Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV View Post
{Sigh}

Their bishops are excommunicate, their priests suspended ad divinis and without faculties, and the laity warned against the grave sin of schism by participation in their services.
----------------------------------------------------------

Gee---refreshing the paint there---JKirkLVVNV.
  #94  
Old Jul 13, '07, 11:05 pm
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: New interview with Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
----------------------------------------------------------

Gee---refreshing the paint there---JKirkLVVNV.
Just telling the truth.
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  #95  
Old Jul 14, '07, 1:30 am
Semper Fi Semper Fi is offline
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Default Re: New interview with Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
Originally Posted by Semper Fi
It is very much different if one is a Catholic and choses to become a Protestant. Then, I would say they are a schismatic and a heretic. If they grew up as a Protestant and didn't really know any better, the term "separated brethren" is better suited. Now the SSPX since its only members are priests, presumably most were once Catholic, then we can say that they are the h and s words till they are reconciled with Rome or Rome regularizes their canonical status.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Look who is talking about baring false witness. A person who has the Catholic Faith is not a heretic----yet you took it upon yourself to say the SSPX priests were once Catholic, then they are "h".
The Catholic Faith includes submitting to ones rightful leader. If you do not submit to the local bishop or your organization is not part of an order or fraternity recognized by Rome, then you have placed yourself outside of the Church -- no one else. The priests of the Society of Saint Pius X might play church but they're not in the Church until they reconcile with the Pope. I choose to stick with the Pope -- the Bishop of Rome and the head of the Church on Earth. When he says the SSPX are a valid Catholic religious society, then I will most definitely be one of the first ones to attend the Masses offered by the SSPX. Until then, I'd rather stick with my Novus Ordo parish because they are 100% Catholic and there's no wondering about it. BTW I do sympathize with the SSPX and probably would've been a "Lefebvrist" myself if I had been alive at the time that the SSPX was merely an uncanonical priestly fraternity. But now they think they can go dictating to Rome? No, I think it goes the other way around in this church. The Catholic Faith is not a democracy and we don't always get what we want. I sympathize with them but I cannot agree with their methods because they go against canon law. At my church there's no clown masses or even that many EMHCs, we are lucky enough to be served by 3 priests and we have a convent on site as well as a Catholic school. BTW -- not all SSPX priests are h words, some are only schismatics... but the ones that specifically deny Vatican II outright I would have to say tread very thin lines.
  #96  
Old Jul 14, '07, 7:43 am
Walking_Home Walking_Home is offline
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Default Re: New interview with Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semper Fi View Post
The Catholic Faith includes submitting to ones rightful leader. If you do not submit to the local bishop or your organization is not part of an order or fraternity recognized by Rome, then you have placed yourself outside of the Church -- no one else. The priests of the Society of Saint Pius X might play church but they're not in the Church until they reconcile with the Pope. I choose to stick with the Pope -- the Bishop of Rome and the head of the Church on Earth. When he says the SSPX are a valid Catholic religious society, then I will most definitely be one of the first ones to attend the Masses offered by the SSPX. Until then, I'd rather stick with my Novus Ordo parish because they are 100% Catholic and there's no wondering about it. BTW I do sympathize with the SSPX and probably would've been a "Lefebvrist" myself if I had been alive at the time that the SSPX was merely an uncanonical priestly fraternity. But now they think they can go dictating to Rome? No, I think it goes the other way around in this church. The Catholic Faith is not a democracy and we don't always get what we want. I sympathize with them but I cannot agree with their methods because they go against canon law. At my church there's no clown masses or even that many EMHCs, we are lucky enough to be served by 3 priests and we have a convent on site as well as a Catholic school. BTW -- not all SSPX priests are h words, some are only schismatics... but the ones that specifically deny Vatican II outright I would have to say tread very thin lines.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would say---Rome has not called the SSPX heretic---so don't take take it upon yourself to do--what Rome has not.
  #97  
Old Aug 9, '07, 11:32 am
QuoVadis? QuoVadis? is offline
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Default Re: New interview with Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

"For what it's worth:

1) I remember reading somewhere that Catholics who do not have access to the Tridentine Mass through their diocese may attend an SSPX Mass, provided they are not doing so as an act of rebellion from Rome but for noble reasons (such as a desire for reverence)." -Quo Vadis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
I've never heard this, and I don't see any way that could be true. Up until the Motu Proprio it was explicitely left up to the local Bishop to decide whether or not the faithful in his area would receive the indult to use the TLM. How could such a direct ordinance from the Pope (Ecclesia Dei) be bypassed so casually? If it's left up to the Bishop, it's left up to the Bishop.
Father Z provided a long-winded answer at his blog on Tuesday. But at the end he substantiates his position with this quote from Ecclesia Dei:

Quote:
"The Masses [SSPX priests] celebrate are also valid, but it is considered morally illicit for the faithful to participate in these Masses unless they are physically or morally impeded from participating in a Mass celebrated by a Catholic priest in good standing (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 844.2). The fact of not being able to assist at the celebration of the so-called "Tridentine" Mass is not considered a sufficient motive for attending such Masses." [emphasis mine]
So it appears that my original comment is very close to the position of the Church. I would think one could claim "moral impedance" if the surrounding diocesan parishes have serious liturgical issues (laymen giving the homily, ad-libbed words of consecration, etc.).
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  #98  
Old Aug 9, '07, 2:32 pm
Ghosty Ghosty is offline
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Default Re: New interview with the SSPX's Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
So it appears that my original comment is very close to the position of the Church. I would think one could claim "moral impedance" if the surrounding diocesan parishes have serious liturgical issues (laymen giving the homily, ad-libbed words of consecration, etc.).
I don't see how this is the case. The Bishop allowing certain abuses does not morally prevent you from attending a Catholic Mass in his diocese, and it certainly doesn't physically impede you.

Peace and God bless!
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  #99  
Old Aug 9, '07, 6:25 pm
BobP123 BobP123 is offline
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Default Re: New interview with Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuoVadis? View Post
"For what it's worth:

1) I remember reading somewhere that Catholics who do not have access to the Tridentine Mass through their diocese may attend an SSPX Mass, provided they are not doing so as an act of rebellion from Rome but for noble reasons (such as a desire for reverence)." -Quo Vadis
======================================== ==

Quote:
Can. 844 §2 Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ's faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

Can. 1248 §1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.

§2 If it is impossible to assist at a eucharistic celebration, either because no sacred minister is available or for some other grave reason, the faithful are strongly recommended to take part in a liturgy of the Word, if there be such in the parish church or some other sacred place, which is celebrated in accordance with the provisions laid down by the diocesan Bishop; or to spend an appropriate time in prayer, whether personally or as a family or, as occasion presents, in a group of families.
Moral impossibility would include a whole host of items, any one of which should work, especially occasions of sin which you have confessed before. But that's for you to determine. If you stand to lose your faith by attending there, I definitely think you should stay away, be it a TLM, a new order, or an Eastern Rite. Not in themselves but in what they do with the liturgy or who shows up there.
  #100  
Old Aug 9, '07, 10:47 pm
mao now mao now is offline
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Default Re: New interview with the SSPX's Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Dear, Brothers and Sisters
Before I converted to the true faith, I attended Mass at an SSPX chapel.....
The experience was very edifying..
  #101  
Old Aug 9, '07, 11:07 pm
mao now mao now is offline
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Default Re: New interview with the SSPX's Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Also as regards the SSPX, whenever they open A chapel in a diocese, they ask for faculties, and incardination. from the local ordinary. As far as I know, they have all been refused. I read (on the SSPX website) the letters from one of their Priests to the Ordinary of a large Diocese in Nebraska. He called them a "Non Catholic Cult".....
most uncharitable...
I feel sorry for them
Everywhere there is not a hand that is not lifted against them, Persecuted, despised, calumniated,
I think we should lighten up, and show more love.
Thats just my opinion
God Bless
  #102  
Old Aug 10, '07, 3:51 am
BobP123 BobP123 is offline
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Default Re: New interview with the SSPX's Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
I don't see how this is the case. The Bishop allowing certain abuses does not morally prevent you from attending a Catholic Mass in his diocese, and it certainly doesn't physically impede you.
Believe it or not, some people do get sick when they see these abuses at certain parishes. These Canon laws weren't put in there for nothing.
  #103  
Old Aug 10, '07, 8:16 am
paramedicgirl paramedicgirl is offline
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Default Re: New interview with the SSPX's Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobP123 View Post
Believe it or not, some people do get sick when they see these abuses at certain parishes. These Canon laws weren't put in there for nothing.
That's true enough. Being exposed to liturgical abuses can cause tachycardia, tachypnea, nausea and vomiting, skin pallor, and can also initiate the fight or flight response in a pre-disposed person. In others it may initiate vasovagal syncope so that they just plain faint.
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When you are before the altar believe that there are troops of angels and archangels trembling with respect before the sovereign Master of Heaven and earth. Therefore, when you are in church, be there in silence, fear, and veneration.

- Saint John Chrysostom

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  #104  
Old Aug 10, '07, 10:54 am
stmaria stmaria is offline
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Default Re: New interview with the SSPX's Bishop Fellay on the Motu Proprio

I will bet that at some point Pope Benedict will say that the clergy of the SSPX have never been excommunicated but divisions still exist because of the SSPX refusal to accept certain teachings of Vatican II. I know that there are quotes saying they were excommunicated but I am basing my belief on the following.

QUESTION 11 http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q11_abexcommunicated.htm
Wasn't ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE excommunicated for consecrating bishops unlawfully?
…Now, the excommunication warned of on June 17, for abuse of episcopal powers (canon 1382), was not incurred because4. A person who violates a law out of necessity* is not subject to a penalty (1983 Code of Canon Law, canon 1323, §4), even if there is no state of necessity1:
· if one inculpably thought there was, he would not incur the penalty (canon 1323, 70), and if one culpably thought there was, he would still incur no automatic penalties
· No penalty is ever incurred without committing a subjective mortal sin (canons 1321 §1, 1323 70).

Now, Archbishop Lefebvre made it amply clear that he was bound in conscience to do what he could do to continue the Catholic priesthood and that he was obeying God in going ahead with the consecrations
·
· QUESTION 12 http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q12_sspxschismatic.htm
Isn't the SOCIETY OF SAINT PIUS X schismatic?
…Nor would it be a “schismatic act” to consecrate against the express wish of the Holy Father. That could amount to disobedience at most.* But disobedience does not amount to schism; schism requires that one not recognize the authority of the pope to command; disobedience consists in not obeying a command, whilst still acknowledging the authority of the one commanding.

·1988 CONSECRATION SERMON
by Archbishop Lefebvre
June 30th 1988

http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/append...ion_sermon.htm
 

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