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  #46  
Old Aug 24, '07, 1:54 pm
BobP123 BobP123 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of August 14, 2007

I am still comparing Karl's newsletters of July 17th and Aug 14th. Maybe I'm wrong here, but he seems to be holding two somewhat different sentiments concerning the TLM. In the first one, he is admitting that bishops have been somewhat stingy in their allowance of the TLM, and yet, in the second, he's pointing out the many drawbacks of the TLM. But isn't the second view exactly what bishops imply when they fail to allow more TLM's in their respective dioceses.

This, however, should be a moot point anyway. The Motu Proprio has been carefully studied, extensively researched, and freely signed by the Pope. The bishops are free to express their opinions and stand in the way if they wish. But if they do oppose it, they should realize that they are standing up against not one Pope, but at least two Popes who have bravely battled for the Old Rite to persevere and be available to all Catholics. And many of them should also remind themselves who it was that appointed them as bishops in the first place. I know my job is on the line if I express insubordination against my boss, even if my fellow colleagues agree with me. Collegiality shouldn't be used as an excuse to bite the hand that feeds me, so to speak.
  #47  
Old Aug 25, '07, 8:17 pm
junvir junvir is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of August 14, 2007

Your story is nice... unfortunately I smell a lie... it is not true that you dreamt of that "old mass" ... i suspect it is a product of your fertile imagination. Well, it may be good to spread the word of God, but if the means is based on a lie... because that dream did not happen... then people using logic may eventually lost faith in you.... I HOPE I AM WRONG!!!
  #48  
Old Aug 26, '07, 12:08 pm
qmvsimp qmvsimp is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of August 14, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by junvir View Post
Your story is nice... unfortunately I smell a lie... it is not true that you dreamt of that "old mass" ... i suspect it is a product of your fertile imagination. Well, it may be good to spread the word of God, but if the means is based on a lie... because that dream did not happen... then people using logic may eventually lost faith in you.... I HOPE I AM WRONG!!!
It was satire: http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/satire

A literary device used to elicit humor while making a point. Much different than a lie.
  #49  
Old Aug 27, '07, 12:48 am
LittleDeb LittleDeb is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of August 14, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
This debate in the church is strikingly similar to the problem of illegal immigration in America today. No rational progress can be made on the issue because it polarizes seemingly all politicians into one of two positons:
1. Build a big wall, patrol it, catch 'em and send 'em all back where they came from. We don't want 'em.
2. To deny anyone the right to come and stay here is blatantly racist, selfish and immoral. Don't you dare try to actually enforce any sort of immigration restriction.

Both sides fail to see that it is a 'false dilemma' and thus are unable to make any progress. In reality, we need BOTH compassionate immigration policy AND the ability to provide security and assure that the volume of immigration doesn't destabilize our society or societies from which they emigrate.

How is it similar? Karl points out that the VII fathers most likely intended for the liturgical reforms to be like previous ones: organically connected to the liturgy of the past ( as opposed to the hermeneutic of rupture as someone smarter than me put it). It is almost universally agreed among folks here on CAF forums that today's liturgy has some serious problems and even abuses that need to be addressed. Unfortunately, no progress can be made to reforming the NO into that which it was SUPPOSED to be when the church breaks into just two groups:
1. This is TODAY'S liturgy, we like it better and we won't go back.
2. TLM was handed down from a cloud and must be considered as sacred scripture, infallible and unchangeable.

So stop being part of the problem and start supporting needed reforms to the NO. I for one, would like to see:
1. Proper adherence to the GIRM in all areas as a nice first step.
2. The use of SOME latin in every mass as an acknowledgement of our identity as latin rite catholics and a link with the traditions of our past. The Kyrie and Agnus Dei would be an easy first step.
3. Can the ICEL and get some faithful translations for petes sake!
4. Reestablish lost architectural standards that always worked to make sacred space and direct the attention of the people towards God (yes, as a community. But let's not forget that God part, eh architects?)
5. Ad orientum. If you think his back is towards you, your perspective needs adjustment!
6. Return to missals and/or missalettes. I'd sure like to KNOW, rather than just suspect the the lector mispronounced something. Besides, everybody learns better when presented with TWO sensory inputs instead of just one.
7. Establish a eucharistic prayer rotation. If priests are always using the short version, take away their option and specify which Sunday gets which prayer.

But I have no draw towards a mass where the sounds are incomprehensible to me. I see no advantage to hearing LESS scripture instead of more. I think it is theologically proper for lay folks to do readings and prayers of the faithful from the lecturn.

I think some folks misunderstand cause and effect when it comes to the TLM. Participants at a TLM today are there because they WANT a more reverent transcendent experience with a community of like-minded fervent believers more interested in the miracle of the eucharist than the Packer pre-game show (gasp). They find that experience at TLM and believe it is the form that creates the experience. News flash for y'all. It isn't. It's the faith of the people around you expressed IN that mass that so strongly reinforces the sacredness of the sacrament. I can say this from experience because I've BEEN through a month of hard training for a year of service in youth ministry (NET teams) with a hundred other young believing catholics awash in the sacraments, adoration, scripture and talks by holy men and women. Being in a NO mass with that group of people literally shook the walls of the tiny chapel we had to use. The NO can absolutely produce the SAME effects of reverence and awe for the Glory of our God as the TLM. But only when done with the same sorts of PEOPLE typically at a TLM.
I almost missed this excellent post. All I can really say is wow, Wow, WOW!! Very well put!
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"...it is indeed of the utmost importance that the faithful should be well instructed concerning matrimony; ... by means of plain and weighty arguments, so that these truths will strike the intellect and will be deeply engraved on their hearts." --Casti Connubii 105
  #50  
Old Aug 27, '07, 2:35 am
Brennan Doherty Brennan Doherty is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of August 14, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
...
But I have no draw towards a mass where the sounds are incomprehensible to me. I see no advantage to hearing LESS scripture instead of more. I think it is theologically proper for lay folks to do readings and prayers of the faithful from the lecturn.

I think some folks misunderstand cause and effect when it comes to the TLM. Participants at a TLM today are there because they WANT a more reverent transcendent experience with a community of like-minded fervent believers more interested in the miracle of the eucharist than the Packer pre-game show (gasp). They find that experience at TLM and believe it is the form that creates the experience. News flash for y'all. It isn't. It's the faith of the people around you expressed IN that mass that so strongly reinforces the sacredness of the sacrament. ... The NO can absolutely produce the SAME effects of reverence and awe for the Glory of our God as the TLM. But only when done with the same sorts of PEOPLE typically at a TLM.
If the sounds of Latin are incomprehensible to you, then learn some Latin.

The scripture used for the Traditional Latin Mass was chosen specifically to help people prepare for Holy Communion.

I agree with your prescriptions for the Novus Ordo.

The Form has everything to do with the experience. If the Form is reverent and transcendent people's behavior will follow. If the Form is stripped down and bare people's behavior will follow.

I have just read "No Place for God" by Moyra Doorly (Ignatius Press) who writes about the connection between the liturgy and the building of ugly churches which has been so prevalent over the last few decades. One quote from from the book (click on the link to read an excerpt):

"When the liturgical revolution of the twentieth century deliberately shifted the focus of the Church's worship to God present in the people, this went hand in hand with a profound change in the idea of what a church is, how it functions, and the message it should proclaim.

... Another sign that the new liturgy reflects the Relativism of the age is the pattern of movements made by the various participants at the Mass. This pattern is generated by the constant coming and going and endless bustle that indicates the formlessness of Relativist space, its lack of direction, and its denial of the sacred. There is a constant movement from nave to sanctuary and back again, if indeed there is any boundary between them at all. Lay people enter the sanctuary to give the readings, and priest wanders about in the nave to deliver his sermon through a mobile microphone. Holy Communion is brought into the nave for distribution; and there is movement across the aisles during the kiss of peace. The flow of the Mass is frequently interrupted by every party having to do its bit. The whole thing seems scattered, its movements characterized by a breaking down of form.

The traditional linear arrangements had a structure and direction that could be readily understood and in which it was possible to be at rest. In a Relativist universe emptied of meaning, it is a very human response to fill the vacated spaces with noise and activity. Is it any wonder that the New Mass is the way it is?

... By embracing the spirit of the age, the Church has necessarily become watered-down and bland, fearful of proclaiming the glory of God and anxious to please. By attempting to become more "relevant" to the age, she has only succeeded in becoming more and more marginalized. The church building, once the House of God and a foretaste of Heaven, is no place in particular and nothing special. The overwhelming impression given by the ever-decreasing numbers of people still worshipping there is of inward- looking and self-celebratory communities who barely know or acknowledge, let alone rejoice in, the presence of God or the great wonders of the faith.

Many commentators have noted with regret the elimination of mystery, awe, and reverence from the contemporary Church and her liturgy. Just as regrettable, surely, is the impulse toward self-worship that has declared the contemporary church building to be "no place for God".

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/featu...rgod_apr07.asp

If one is at a TLM in a church that looks Catholic, that uses Gregorian chant and incense, a reverent atmosphere will be established. People will recognize that it is a reverent atmosphere and will behave accordingly. Further, if one is at a Mass like that, everything there is lifting up one's heart and mind to God, and how reverent one' s neighbor is becomes irrelevant. This is one reason you don't hear about people chatting in the pews before and after Mass prior to the liturgical changes.

God bless.
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Read "The Case for the Latin Mass" by Dietrich von Hildebrand:

http://www.latin-mass-society.org/dietrich.htm
 

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