Karl Keating's E-Letter of January 8, 2008 - Page 4

Joe Kelley · #46 Jan 20, '08, 6:05 pm

I have a love letter from my great-great-grandfather to his wife to be that is very moving. Less than a year after their marriage she died, possibly in child-birth, if so the child died too and was not recorded. He resigned himself to a single life.

A few years later his brother jilted the girl he was to marry and married widow. She and my great-great-grandfather decided since neither had prospects they should try to make some kind of a life together. It worked well; they had eight children and there are a lot of us descendents scattered all over the country today.

I also have her diary for the year he died. It doesn't say much in words, but there is much between the lines.

MikinVa · #47 Jan 20, '08, 7:23 pm

Whats up in here?

dessert · #48 Jan 21, '08, 11:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikinVa

Whats up in here?

Karl's started this thread with his letter on love and like, appropriate if it continues though V- Day.

Here is a poem I came across;

The desire in me lights up, to offer you
Joyfully what seems right to lovers;
Know that Love writes it in his book,
And this is the end for which we come together.

Princess, hear what is summed up here;
That my heart from yours will never part;
As much from you I expect,
And this is the end for which we come together.

This is from the book Women In The Days Of The Cathedrals
(12th century history) pg145

**JimG** · #49 Jan 21, '08, 2:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AddieLozano

all right fine then at 15 I guess, considering Prince Charming is right out the door, thanks Karl Keating for that Good News

Well, I expect there might well be many prince charming's in your life, one of whom could turn out to be your future husband, but not just because he's prince charming!

valient Lucy · #50 Jan 23, '08, 8:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AddieLozano

all right fine then at 15 I guess, considering Prince Charming is right out the door, thanks Karl Keating for that Good News

Well, with any luck, the guy you (and I) marry won't have the maturity of a 15 year old boy.

OriginalJS · #51 Jan 24, '08, 10:05 am

Of course, Karl is correct. Everyone has defects. As one of those motivational speakers said, "If your spouse was perfect, she wouldn't be married to you."

Sorry if the following is off-topic.

I was struck by Karl's initial observations that we immediately dislike people in various situations, such as a traffic jam or on a crowded street. Animosity to someone we don't know out of frustration is a manifestation of anger, one of the seven deadly sins. Anger is flourishing in our society and from my experience is the hardest of the seven deadly sins to overcome. Think about your feelings when you get cut off in traffic, or someone crowds in line in front of you. . .

OriginalJS · #52 Jan 24, '08, 10:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish57

That was a very good article. I have been confused about the commandment from Jesus that we should Love everyone. But that makes sense about how you may love people but not like them. thank you

Do a little reading about the difference between "agape" love and "eros" love. Many can explain the difference far better than I.

valient Lucy · #53 Jan 24, '08, 6:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaryRocks!

Thank you thank you thank you Karl for this for stopping the chastity speakers from telling young people what they were saying.

I am one of those who was told 'He's out there! God has him for you . . .any day now... save yourself for him ... wait for him . . .any day now . .. .' for 15 years. It becomes a test of faith when this does not happen and leads to sorrow and bitterness among single women.
There are many lovely and holy Catholic women that are waiting to be asked to court, heartbroken, and the men we know just don't ask. Then we watch our fertile years disappearing as the Catholic men we know pass us by. THEN we hear how desperately the world needs more children and we are screaming 'We're here! We will!!!!!!' But we can't find a Catholic man to marry!

Gentlemen, listen to Karl, get out of fantasy-land looking for the Virgin Mary wanna- be that in your eyes should also look like Jennifer Anisten. Ask out one of those ten girls you see at Mass every Sunday sitting alone!
And women, when they ask, say yes! An invitation to coffee is not a marriage proposal!

Amen! I know EXACTLY how you feel!

jmcdzzz · #54 Feb 13, '08, 12:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zemi

Just for the sake of discussion: What would you personally say to someone if he told you: "But how can you love someone if you don't like him?! How can you do that? My will cannot do it when I don't like him!"

What would God say to people who are unlikeable but He chooses to love anyway? "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Rom. 5:8

qmvsimp · #55 Feb 13, '08, 3:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmcdzzz

What would God say to people who are unlikeable but He chooses to love anyway? "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Rom. 5:8

I love your moniker (Baptist waters - shore)! Welcome!

renaissancelady · #56 Feb 14, '08, 1:21 pm

Thank you so much for dispelling the one-true-intended-soulmate myth. As a young Catholic, I've seen various versions of this myth circulating, be it with future spouses - "the One", or vocational choices "find the One true path God is calling you on". The implication is that you have to discover what is the ONE thing God wants you to do, or be unhappy forever.

The reason why this has to be false is that it demands that every person receive a private revelation (where God explicitly tells you what to do) - something our faith has never demanded. (Either that or we have a very cruel God who has only one plan for you but refuses to tell you what it is while you aimlessly wander).

I think this type of thinking comes from evangelical ideas, which imply that everyone has a direct connection to the Holy Spirit who will tell them what to do, combined with the romantic notions of our secular culture.

These ideas seem to work okay for sanguine types, but for an introspective person such as myself it led to a lengthy bout of clinical depression, exacerbated by a spiritual director who "knew" I had a religious vocation to a particular order, after 5 minutes of knowing me. I only got out of this whole cycle after some time with a (Catholic) therapist, and when I finally decided to just marry my boyfriend and get on with my life.

I've now been happily married for a couple years and have a gorgeous baby son. I feel lucky, like I've escaped some kind of trap - I see several friends who are paralyzed waiting for God to give them a special sign to let then know "the One" or what path to follow. Some of them have been waiting for years.

Sorry for the rant - I guess I was so releived to finally hear a Catholic source agree with me that I just had to spout it all out.

Trisha Lynne · #57 Mar 4, '08, 2:16 pm

I totally disagree with Karl Keating on this point of "The One."

I really do think there is a soul-mate out there (I have to admit here, not without laughing, that I am not married-- so maybe what I say should be taken with a grain of salt!).

Here are the biblical foundations for my faith in "The One":

1. The book of Tobit. Young Tobias and Sarah were brought together by God. The archangel Raphael was sent in answer to their prayers and to bring them together (and bring healing to both families in the process). Keating seems to be saying that such things happen only in fairy tales and Hollywood movies. But what if it also happens in Scripture?

2. The Song of Songs. Now, granted, this text should probably be read as the song of Christ's love for his Church and vice versa. But even the Jews believed that your beloved is one in a million. The question is: does your love make him one in a million, or is he one in a million because God picked him (or her) for you?

Now for some arguments based just on reason:
1. I accept Keating's distinction between liking and loving someone. It makes perfect sense. And obviously, a match made in heaven is not going to be a match LIVED in heaven. It will be lived out on earth, and no one said both parties had to be flawless. I think it is possible to be brought together by God, and then to have lots of work to do. This is just reality. God calls us, but that doesn't mean he does everything for us. It's up to us to correspond to his grace day by day. That way, we get to merit something and God can share the credit with us!

2. As for vocations, I also believe that God DOES call us to a specific vocation from all eternity. Vocations originate in the mind of God. If not, then we'd have to start doubting whether God really wanted Peter to be Pope, and whether Pope Benedict is really God's choice or not... these are obviously God's choices! So, does God have a specific plan only for popes? No, of course not. He chooses a specific path for each one of us. Now, that path might have twists and turns in it, and it is also possible that an overzealous spiritual director could try to direct us to something that is not truly our vocation (mistakes can happen). But this does not negate the principle that in fact, God does have a specific plan for each person. The lives of the saints attest that this is true. Gemma Galgani, for instance, was meant to be a Passionist sister. The order didn't let her in at that time. But God wanted it for her; he told her so.

3. God can bring two people together because he has a specific plan for them to sanctify each other and help each other get to heaven. I think the distinction we may have been missing is this: a match made in heaven is not going to be a flawless, bump-free, angst-free ride along a primrose path. Of course not. It will have its own built-in crosses. But is it any less God-given just because it has crosses and imperfections built in? Of course not. These flaws and bumps help us to grow holier and exercise virtue. So, the healthy realism Keating is calling for is fully compatible with faith in The One.

In the end, I guess we need to take a position of moderated idealism. The Prince Charming every girl is waiting for is really Jesus Christ... he's the only flawless hero. But I see no reason why a girl can't also hope to find the man God wants her to be with -- that person who, with all of his own human reality, flaws included, will help her to learn to love more deeply and become more human than she could have without him.

I'll stop here. But I would like to go down on the record as one who believes--with some basis in Scripture and reason--that God has a specific match in mind for us. It might not be a Hollywood Prince Charming, but it will be the right fit for our sanctification.

qmvsimp · #58 Mar 5, '08, 12:38 pm

Neither you nor Karl are wrong. Here's why.

This boils down to the standard "free will' discussion. God is in control, yet you make choices.

Thomas Aquinas once said, "pray as if everything depends on God, live as if everything depends on you." The quote might be a little off, but that's the gist of it.

Your points are well taken and, in a theological/philosophical discussion, are right on. Karl's points are better for practical applications, and in particular, are much better for use with young people not well versed in free-will-theological discussions.

God has someone special for all of us, but since we can't be sure if it's that guy who is irritating, or that guy who really seems nice, we must be prepared to make our own choices. God is not going to put a sign with your name on it and pin it to a certain guy.

Trisha Lynne · #59 Mar 5, '08, 1:00 pm

I'd like to respond to this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by qmvsimp

God has someone special for all of us, but since we can't be sure if it's that guy who is irritating, or that guy who really seems nice, we must be prepared to make our own choices. God is not going to put a sign with your name on it and pin it to a certain guy.

I think we are probably agreeing on the same point with different "sensibilities" at work, but I have to react to something in your statement above. Well, two things:

1. I don't think faith in "The One" has to be naive or silly. I never said (nor do I believe) that God will resort to special "signs" to point out the right person--although he could if he wanted to, and maybe he sometimes does. Obviously, God is not going to put a sign with our name on it and pin it on someone. I assume there will be no auras or bright lights surrounding him. Much more likely that there will be a gradual process in which an initial friendship or interest matures into a moment (or perhaps a slow dawning) of what I would call *interior recognition*... a sense of waking up and realizing, "Hey, this is the person I'm meant to be with for hte rest of my life. This is the one." So, the moment of recognition can occur in a seemingly natural and ordinary way, but that's how God often works! Even with vocation stories, it seems like the call comes through a mixture of experiences, reflection, and a kind of interior awakening. It seems like that's how God works.

So, I don't want anyone to cheapen that reality by reducing it to the absurdity of a "sign" with your name on it, hanging around the neck of the other person. God can also work in ways that seem ordinary and unobtrusive to us... but that doesn't make him any less involved. It's not random, is what I'm trying to say. It's the unfolding of a plan from all eternity.

2. Why would God want you to marry a guy who seems irritating? I don't think his great plan for love is supposed to be a deliberately chosen path of self-inflicted suffering. It might happen that you start out thinking someone is great and then later discover irritating traits (that's just human realism) but that's a far cry from choosing an irritating person to suffer with for the rest of your life. So, I didn't really see how that comment was a propos.

Anyway, that's how I see it. Let's give God all the room he wants to act in our lives, and let's combine healthy realism with a very lively FAITH that there is a plan at work, and that if we pray, we'll be able to recognize what move to make next.

qmvsimp · #60 Mar 5, '08, 2:43 pm

Thanks for the reply. I agree with much of what you said, and I didn't mean to imply that you expected a sign. I just wanted to lesson your "total disagreement" with Karl, because I don't think you were talking about the same thing. I do want to specifically respond to this quote

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trisha Lynne

2. Why would God want you to marry a guy who seems irritating? I don't think his great plan for love is supposed to be a deliberately chosen path of self-inflicted suffering.

First, that's quite a jump to make from someone who is irritating to a path of self-inflicted suffering. I certainly didn't imply that. But to answer your question, there are many reasons. Perhaps a person needs to be humbled and they need someone picking at them to humble them. But I have a specific example in mind. My wife and I wouldn't be happily married for 18+ years had she not looked past my irritating traits when we first got to know each other. My parents and sister have similar stories. The point is, look past the superficial impressions, you never know what prize awaits.