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  #16  
Old Mar 22, '08, 1:36 pm
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SpiritMeadow SpiritMeadow is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homebrew_roots View Post
Sinful acts of the people of God are the business of all of the people of God. We all have some sinful ways and they are the business of everyone involved in the people of God. It is absolutely incorrect to say that there are a tiny few who view masturbation as a sinful act. ABSOLUTELY incorrect. It is widely common knowledge that it is, in fact, sinful. The question of mortal or venial is a question relative to the person. But the fact that it is a sin is not relative to the person. And time to move on to more important subjects? There is not much more important than the morality of the people. Without that, how can we expect to change anything else? Your priest happens to be incorrect if he says masturbation is not a sin and he has a very flawed view of what chaste celibacy is. It is a shame that people have given way to the "sexual revolution" and are now regarding blatant offenses as not being sinful at all.
I would grant you that some might consider masterbation sinful. I reject the idea that it is the duty of every day people to interpose their views on this subject and tell others that they are being sinful. I doubt other christian denominations feel this way.

The morality of people is of importance. I was referring to real issues such as war, poverty, health care, justice, and a plethora of real issues going on in the world.

I don't know why people conclude that my priest claimed it was not a sin. He simply pointed out in his book and later to his seminary students that it was sad when confessionals seemed filled with almost nothng but young boys doing their weekly confession about masterbation.

And of course you should remember that the sexual revolution as you call it did not start masterbation. It's been around as long as humans have been. And I rather doubt that the degree of masterbation has changed one whit in all those tens of thousands of years.
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  #17  
Old Mar 22, '08, 2:07 pm
Sideline Sideline is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

There is about a 1% chance of that conversation going well, and about a 40% chance of it ending in screaming and profanity.

You might want to bear that in mind.
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  #18  
Old Mar 22, '08, 2:10 pm
Yerusalyim Yerusalyim is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

Wear shower shoes whenever in the room and harrass him mercilessly about it.
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  #19  
Old Mar 22, '08, 2:31 pm
jrnami jrnami is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

I think you should keep your mouth shut and try to mind your own business. It's embarrassing enough for him.
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  #20  
Old Mar 22, '08, 2:32 pm
CentralFLJames CentralFLJames is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritMeadow View Post
And of course you should remember that the sexual revolution as you call it did not start masterbation. It's been around as long as humans have been. And I rather doubt that the degree of masterbation has changed one whit in all those tens of thousands of years.
Its not clear to me if you are condoning masturbation.

Some should remember that likely billions of people have been going to hell ever since Adam fell from grace. I rather doubt that God has changed His standards of judgement for 10s of thousands of years either.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11,6:18
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals [ed opinion: pleasuring self is the same as homosexuality], nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
...
Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Galatians 5 19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It's just not good business sense to trade an eternity of torment for a few moments of pleasure. God doesn't want to suffer His saints the eternal company of fools. Let the wise man take heed as to what profits his soul.

James
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  #21  
Old Mar 22, '08, 7:59 pm
Homebrew_roots Homebrew_roots is offline
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Cool Re: roomate and masterbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritMeadow View Post
I would grant you that some might consider masterbation sinful. I reject the idea that it is the duty of every day people to interpose their views on this subject and tell others that they are being sinful. I doubt other christian denominations feel this way.

The morality of people is of importance. I was referring to real issues such as war, poverty, health care, justice, and a plethora of real issues going on in the world.

I don't know why people conclude that my priest claimed it was not a sin. He simply pointed out in his book and later to his seminary students that it was sad when confessionals seemed filled with almost nothng but young boys doing their weekly confession about masterbation.

And of course you should remember that the sexual revolution as you call it did not start masterbation. It's been around as long as humans have been. And I rather doubt that the degree of masterbation has changed one whit in all those tens of thousands of years.
So you reject the idea that we happen to listen to the corporal work of mercy that tells us to admonish the sinner? I'm not saying to crucify this dude, but it could definitely be brought up in a respectful manner and possibly do some good. And quite frankly, what do I care if other Christian denominations don't agree with me on this topic? And it is not whether or not "some view this act as sinful" it is a matter that it IS sinful.

I know what you meant when you said to worry about the important stuff like wars and all that, and I also know that I meant that we cannot expect people who live immoral person lives to have moral public lives. Think about it, it really does make sense. I'm not saying that the Church needs to go on a crusade to make sure that the people aren't masturbating, what I am saying is that it should not be viewed as a taboo topic. It should be viewed and dealt with just like any other sinful behavior and it should be denounced as well as making an effort to help people who struggle with this sin, not just tell them that it is bad.

The "sad" part about the confessionals being filled with boys confessing masturbation is not the fact that they are all there confessing their sins, the "sad" part is that it is so common place that all the younger guys are participating in it. And if he taught that at my seminary he would have to do a pretty darn good job of making sure that he wasn't sounding like he was saying that masturbation is normal/acceptable or the students(including myself) here would have a heyday with him because this would show an obvious lack of a sense of what chaste celibacy truly is. That said, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was not saying that masturbation is ok, he was just making a neutral comment.

Go back and read what I wrote, I never even came close to saying that the sexual revolution started masturbation. I mean that it is sad that because of these relaxed opinions on sexual ethics, a thing like masturbation is seen as normal and possibly even not sinful.

Later.

-daniel
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  #22  
Old Mar 23, '08, 4:10 am
Yerusalyim Yerusalyim is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrnami View Post
I think you should keep your mouth shut and try to mind your own business. It's embarrassing enough for him.
Touchy, aren't we. This is a public forum, so if it's posted here it's everyone's business if we take an interest.
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  #23  
Old Mar 23, '08, 2:13 pm
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SpiritMeadow SpiritMeadow is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralFLJames View Post
Its not clear to me if you are condoning masturbation.

Some should remember that likely billions of people have been going to hell ever since Adam fell from grace. I rather doubt that God has changed His standards of judgement for 10s of thousands of years either.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11,6:18
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals [ed opinion: pleasuring self is the same as homosexuality], nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
...
Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Galatians 5 19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It's just not good business sense to trade an eternity of torment for a few moments of pleasure. God doesn't want to suffer His saints the eternal company of fools. Let the wise man take heed as to what profits his soul.

James
You are correct, I doubt God does change his standards. I do like that you conflate rare references to homosexuality to mean they were also talking about masterbation. Of course that means that those writers didn't know about masterbation, (unlikely) and would violate what I suspect yuou believe, that the Bible is the inspired word of God and thus is accurate. God of course would know about masterbation as well and can address it I assume.

My personal opinion? God doesn't have any interest in the subject. A few writers of the bible did, because they thought it important given their aims in writing.
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  #24  
Old Mar 23, '08, 2:27 pm
dbacks5439 dbacks5439 is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritMeadow View Post
You are correct, I doubt God does change his standards. I do like that you conflate rare references to homosexuality to mean they were also talking about masterbation. Of course that means that those writers didn't know about masterbation, (unlikely) and would violate what I suspect yuou believe, that the Bible is the inspired word of God and thus is accurate. God of course would know about masterbation as well and can address it I assume.

My personal opinion? God doesn't have any interest in the subject. A few writers of the bible did, because they thought it important given their aims in writing.
They wrote it because they were infallibly inspired to do so by the Holy Spirit.

God doesn't have any interest??? You kidding me? What about Sodom and Gomorrah? Onan? God commanded us to be fruitful and multiply, not lock the bathroom door and pinch the one-eyed trouser snake.
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  #25  
Old Mar 23, '08, 2:28 pm
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SpiritMeadow SpiritMeadow is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

Quote:
=Homebrew_roots;3459028]So you reject the idea that we happen to listen to the corporal work of mercy that tells us to admonish the sinner? I'm not saying to crucify this dude, but it could definitely be brought up in a respectful manner and possibly do some good. And quite frankly, what do I care if other Christian denominations don't agree with me on this topic? And it is not whether or not "some view this act as sinful" it is a matter that it IS sinful.
Mostly I reject what is professed on this forum which is that people use that argument to justify condemnation in the guise of informing. Unless the roomate is Catholic, you are telling him something he probably doesn't agree with. If I were not Catholic and someone did this to me, I'd be demanding a new roommate. Unless you re at a Catholic institution, I would assume they would not tolerate other students being harassed in this manner. And that is what I would consider it.

It is not sinful simply because the Catholic church says it is. I recognize that you believe in your faith, and that is fine, but you cannot make absolutes such as that except for yourself. There is no law as far as I know that prohibits masterbation except as a public offense. Thus apprently it is not considered sinful by the majority. You may believe it is, but you have no right to assault another with your belief.

Quote:
I know what you meant when you said to worry about the important stuff like wars and all that, and I also know that I meant that we cannot expect people who live immoral person lives to have moral public lives. Think about it, it really does make sense. I'm not saying that the Church needs to go on a crusade to make sure that the people aren't masturbating, what I am saying is that it should not be viewed as a taboo topic. It should be viewed and dealt with just like any other sinful behavior and it should be denounced as well as making an effort to help people who struggle with this sin, not just tell them that it is bad.
I agree, discuss it all you want in general. But I submit you do not have the right to verbally assault another about what your faith and mine claim is sinful in a public instritution of higher learning, to a particular person you by chance encountered.

Quote:
The "sad" part about the confessionals being filled with boys confessing masturbation is not the fact that they are all there confessing their sins, the "sad" part is that it is so common place that all the younger guys are participating in it. And if he taught that at my seminary he would have to do a pretty darn good job of making sure that he wasn't sounding like he was saying that masturbation is normal/acceptable or the students(including myself) here would have a heyday with him because this would show an obvious lack of a sense of what chaste celibacy truly is. That said, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was not saying that masturbation is ok, he was just making a neutral comment.
The sad thing is apparently you don't realize that this has been the way of life on this planet since the beginning. There is nothing new here. Only certain religious interpretations that claim it is sinful. Masterbation is of course normal--just read all you wish to about it in any psychology or medical journal. It can be abused no doubt, but the basic activity is considered normal by any and all experts.

If one were anticipating entering the priesthood, I would think a bit differently perhaps. I'm not aware of what studies there are in the area about how this impacts the choice of a young man to enter the priesthood. It may indeed suggest that he may not be able to follow his vows. It may have the opposite effect, or none at all. Are you aware of any studies on this?

Quote:
Go back and read what I wrote, I never even came close to saying that the sexual revolution started masturbation. I mean that it is sad that because of these relaxed opinions on sexual ethics, a thing like masturbation is seen as normal and possibly even not sinful.

Later.

-daniel
I understand your position. I do not think masterbation is abnormal, in fact I know it is not considered so by either the medical or psychology experts. You have sited no evidence that masterbation was once considered other than it is today. As I have said other places, I doubt that God spends much time on this issue, a couple of writers did mention it, but I suspect their motives had nothing to do with God.
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  #26  
Old Mar 23, '08, 2:29 pm
hasikelee hasikelee is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

The time to say something was when you walked in on him, depending on several factors:

1) What kind of school (seminary?)
2) His religious background (is he in the Catholic student club?)
3) Your relationship with him (new roomies, best friends?)

Thinking about it, then formulating some kind of reaction later on is a little embarrassing....

"So, dude, I've been thinking about when I walked in on you masturbating..." Do you really think this will be a constructive conversation?
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  #27  
Old Mar 23, '08, 3:34 pm
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baltobetsy baltobetsy is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

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Originally Posted by hasikelee View Post
"So, dude, I've been thinking about when I walked in on you masturbating..." Do you really think this will be a constructive conversation?
Especially when followed up by, "...and I talked it over with a bunch of people on the Internet..."

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  #28  
Old Mar 23, '08, 4:43 pm
CentralFLJames CentralFLJames is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

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Originally Posted by SpiritMeadow View Post
You are correct, I doubt God does change his standards. I do like that you conflate rare references to homosexuality to mean they were also talking about masterbation (sp). Of course that means that those writers didn't know about masterbation (sp), (unlikely) and would violate what I suspect yuou (sp) believe, that the Bible is the inspired word of God and thus is accurate...
First of all I don't imagine that the scripture writers of 1 Corinthians or Galatians 5 19-21 intended to name every variant of immorality, "deeds of the flesh", self-abuse or impure acts. Although there are certain bible translations that substitute "homosexuality" with the phrase "self abuse". The general category of immoral behavior & impure acts is what is being spoken to here in scripture.

What we do know for certain is that God forgives such acts if we make an honest attempt to repent and overcome this sin. My own personal insight is that God permits us to fall into this sin as a means to show us that we have a neglected spiritual life (perhaps most commonly a sin of pride, self righteousness, and self sufficiency). It's a humiliating sort of sin to not have providence and control over one's own body and urges is it not? Caving into these urges and not struggling against it is not an option for those wishing to inherit the Kingdom of God. God can cure the appetite or remove the urge in an instant or over time if one cooperates with Him and asks for His grace - humbly.

Those having problems overcoming masturbation might want to read this resource:
Overcoming the Masturbation Habit

As for the writers not knowing about it - we must assume in fact they did know about it! It must have been widely known since it is complained about in scripture as sinful. But this is exactly making the scripture writer's point that humanity must cast off its sinful nature through the merits and grace of Christ. The scripture writers affirm that they were (and are) sinners since they actually mentioned that some converts previously had committed these sinful acts before they converted to Jesus' teaching.

I must also defend that my conflation is entirely correct. If a man (or a woman) is able to consumate an act of sex with himself (herself) he (she) has demonstrated both through arousal and finality of act that he (she) is aroused by his (her) own thoughts and his (her) own body in the same gender; this may even in some cases be a form of self-love/Narcissism, vanity or even a sort of self-worshiping idolatry. So this is most certainly "same gender" sex and therefor meeting the minimal technical requirements of "a-kind" of "homosexuality". There does not need to be a preference or proclivity for one gender over the other to nullify and defeat the technical fact that in masturbation intimacy is initiated with the same gender; sex with self; and hence homosexual (or an irrational and disordered monosexual).

If somone wants to argue that masturbation is not homosexual since the person was thinking of the opposite sex then straightaway they fall into the grave sin of lust (Mth 5:28) in trying to escape the sin of homosexuality. This actually makes a greater case that masturbation is a doubly grave sin - one of self abuse and one of lust if thinking of: an imagined person; self or; another same-sex person. If one tries to further escape this sin by rationalizing or claiming that "one did not think of anything in the deed" and were just forcing the body to cycle its seed then the fall into the sin of spilling one's seed on the ground (onan 38:9-10). That's strike three. Scripture utterly traps the masturbater or the immoral person who can't admit his fault. The greater one tries to escape it the deeper they get into grave sin.

I won't press it but masturbation is possibly even considered "fornication" since its sex outside of the union of marriage; the counter implication is present in the illicit and invalid condition of being married to oneself as it becomes axiomatically self-condemning.

Possible exceptions?
There is a possible exception for non-conjugal masturbation for medical reasons (consult CCC). Ironically though, there used to be a time when even the USA medical community would not ask a Catholic male to masturbate to draw a sperm specimen for testing and instead used indirect means.

The early Church fathers also saw masturbation as disordered.
Clement of Alexandria
"Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

"To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature" (ibid., 2:10:95:3).

There are many more (including Augustine) - just scan these forums.

The CCC also forbids it in CCC 2392, 2396.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some relevant scriptural references
Job 31:11-12 "For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell. It would wipe out everything I own."

Matthew 5:28, "But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart." [ed: Here was can assume that the same standard applies at least equally and perhaps greater when committed in same gender since it's likely a double offense - self abuse and lust.]

The Christian faith is about selflessness holiness.
See: Romans 6:19, 12:1-2; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 30, 6:19-20; Ephesians 1:4, 4:24; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8, 5:23; 2 Timothy 1:9; Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 1:15-16.

Onan 38:10... 10 But what he did (wasting seed) was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.

James
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Last edited by CentralFLJames; Mar 23, '08 at 4:55 pm.
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  #29  
Old Mar 24, '08, 3:59 pm
Schultzz Schultzz is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

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Originally Posted by SpiritMeadow View Post
LOL...well I never heard a single soul in my life suggest that any dissertation was. What an odd thought. I'm not at all sure that he condoned anyone to mortal sin. But then, I hardly think that masterbation is mortal sin. The church, and SOME of its adherents seem rather obsessed with the subject. I wonder if that is sinful?
I do not know if masturbation is a mortal sin or not. I would doubt it. Yet, in my opinion it is a sin and steals God's grace from us. Some people struggle with addiction to this practice. Prayer, frequent confession and communion will help along with avoiding the occasion of this sin. (I think we are all tempted at one time or another) - don't give into the temptation, and if it persists get some help from a 12 step group or see a counselor, perhaps your spiritual advisor, or pastor. Don't stay in the sin. And don't be afraid to confess your sins to God and a priest.
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  #30  
Old Mar 24, '08, 11:55 pm
Harmony1988 Harmony1988 is offline
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Default Re: roomate and masterbation

Put up a picture of Jesus in his room, that will definitely get him uneasy, guaranteed.
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