Behavior at abortion clinic

[leftistdestroye]

kalt;3636452]

That abortion is legal and is viewed by many as a right is exactly why you can't act like a lunatic and expect to be taken seriously.

If you want these people to wake up to the reality of abortion, you can't do it by looking like a madman.

Unfortunately, prior bad behavior by a few have left the pro-life side looking a little nutty to those who are in favor of legal abortion. They do see it as a woman's rights issue, not a question of murder. Understand that this is there belief. They honestly think this way. They don't say this so they can do what they want. They truly think this way.

If you continue to act like one of the lunatics by screaming over the fences, you only help their cause. They paint the pro-life side as lunatics who think that women shouldn't have the right to decide for herself. They paint the pro-lifers as people who want to *control* women.

And here we have 2 much older *men* screaming "Loser" at a much younger woman going into the clinic.

Think.

I understand all of your points, I do. And they are logical. But I am not suggesting that only a couple of people use my method, I am suggesting that a mass number of people use it. A couple of angry people come off as crazy. 500+ angry people, and it get's noticed. I am not talking about a reckless mob action necessarily, but the power of sheer numbers. Look at the immigration rallies. They WILL get what they want eventually. Women's rights mobs won because of that method. I am not above using those methods, they have worked in the past, and they can work now, for our benefit.

[kalt]

Originally Posted by leftistdestroye

kalt;3636452]



I understand all of your points, I do. And they are logical. But I am not suggesting that only a couple of people use my method, I am suggesting that a mass number of people use it. A couple of angry people come off as crazy. 500+ angry people, and it get's noticed. I am not talking about a reckless mob action necessarily, but the power of sheer numbers. Look at the immigration rallies. They WILL get what they want eventually. Women's rights mobs won because of that method. I am not above using those methods, they have worked in the past, and they can work now, for our benefit.

I think you're right. If the majority of people stood outside clinics every weekend to protest abortion, it would get noticed. It will never happen. It's just not the way the world works. You won't get that many people to commit.

Mob scenes don't work. Mobs can't be controlled.

In the end, people in authority have to be on your side. If not, no number of people will get anything done. I don't think that abortion will end by convincing the majority of people that it's wrong. It will be the minority that fight to get what's right done. (Think civil rights.)

This is a legal issue, and until the law is changed, very little will change, no matter what you do.

If it's legal, people will insist on their legal right to an abortion.

It is extremely difficult to convince people that something that is legal is wrong. Look at slavery. It was illegal in the North, but legal in the South. Try to convince people in the South, then, that slavery is wrong. It took a war to end it, and even then the people didn' t believe that it was wrong. Their minds were never changed.

And those slaves were people that they could *see*. They believed that their slave laws were morally upstanding and even fair to and protective of the black people. Try convincing a bunch of people that a person they can't see, a person that looks like a cluster of cells, that can't live on its own, is a person with rights, and that they, the person you can see, who looks like a person, who can live on her own, has no rights (as they will understand the argument).

That is the exact argument I heard a Catholic give for allowing abortion. She was a director of an abortion clinic, and she said, "If I have to choose between an embryo or the girl sitting in front of me, I will always choose the girl sitting in front of me."
That woman was later excommunicated. But there is the argument.

Changing minds is never easy. If it's legal, people will insist that it's correct. Even using the example of slavery won't work, because the pro-choice people don't think that the unborn is a person with legal rights.

If you make it illegal, those people will still argue that the unborn shouldn't have any rights, just as those in the South argued that ending slavery was wrong.

But what we're really talking about here is a very local thing,. It's about saving one baby at a time. You can help to change one woman's mind.

If you hope to change minds, though, you can't do it by looking like a lunatic.

[Danny OC]

Originally Posted by kalt

I think you're right. If the majority of people stood outside clinics every weekend to protest abortion, it would get noticed. It will never happen. It's just not the way the world works. You won't get that many people to commit.

Mob scenes don't work. Mobs can't be controlled.

In the end, people in authority have to be on your side. If not, no number of people will get anything done. I don't think that abortion will end by convincing the majority of people that it's wrong. It will be the minority that fight to get what's right done. (Think civil rights.)

This is a legal issue, and until the law is changed, very little will change, no matter what you do.

If it's legal, people will insist on their legal right to an abortion.

It is extremely difficult to convince people that something that is legal is wrong. Look at slavery. It was illegal in the North, but legal in the South. Try to convince people in the South, then, that slavery is wrong. It took a war to end it, and even then the people didn' t believe that it was wrong. Their minds were never changed.

And those slaves were people that they could *see*. They believed that their slave laws were morally upstanding and even fair to and protective of the black people. Try convincing a bunch of people that a person they can't see, a person that looks like a cluster of cells, that can't live on its own, is a person with rights, and that they, the person you can see, who looks like a person, who can live on her own, has no rights (as they will understand the argument).

That is the exact argument I heard a Catholic give for allowing abortion. She was a director of an abortion clinic, and she said, "If I have to choose between an embryo or the girl sitting in front of me, I will always choose the girl sitting in front of me."
That woman was later excommunicated. But there is the argument.

Changing minds is never easy. If it's legal, people will insist that it's correct. Even using the example of slavery won't work, because the pro-choice people don't think that the unborn is a person with legal rights.

If you make it illegal, those people will still argue that the unborn shouldn't have any rights, just as those in the South argued that ending slavery was wrong.

But what we're really talking about here is a very local thing,. It's about saving one baby at a time. You can help to change one woman's mind.

If you hope to change minds, though, you can't do it by looking like a lunatic.

You seem to only care about the big picture. Of course that is important, probably the most important; but individual cases are still worth fighting for also. If you can use a method that prevents one life from being destroyed; who cares if it is seen as "lunatic" and "will not convince most people that legal abortion is wrong"?

The underground railroad operators didn't care that slavery was legal, or that their actions would not convince the masses that slavery was wrong. They did what they did because it meant everything to those that they were able to save. The same is true with standing outside an abortion clinic, doing whatever you can to save the baby.

[Danny OC]

And one more note: based on your initial assessment of the situation in your initial post that created this thread, kalt, it really is wrong to summarize the situation as "two older men yelling 'loser' at a woman going in." That is an entirely unjust way of conveying it. If I am not mistaken, what actually happened was they were yelling "only losers go in there," and "don't be a loser." That is completely different. Let's be fair.

[leftistdestroye]

kalt;3639001]

I think you're right. If the majority of people stood outside clinics every weekend to protest abortion, it would get noticed. It will never happen. It's just not the way the world works. You won't get that many people to commit.

Agreed. And that is why we lose on social issues. We lose by our own hand. But, I do know that it is a Jerry Springer world here today. And I know that many on our side are angry and want more action. They are sick of thie PC pansy method that achieves no results, or very limited ones.

Mob scenes don't work. Mobs can't be controlled.

The Libs use them all the time, and they get noticed and they work. Not my ideal way, but if it works....Politicains take note of large groups.

In the end, people in authority have to be on your side. If not, no number of people will get anything done. I don't think that abortion will end by convincing the majority of people that it's wrong. It will be the minority that fight to get what's right done. (Think civil rights.)

Sure, and they do only as much as we demand. The time is now to demand real hardcore action.

This is a legal issue, and until the law is changed, very little will change, no matter what you do.

This is how we can get the law changed. We just need the right leader.

If it's legal, people will insist on their legal right to an abortion.

Agreed. And Roe was bad law to begin with.

It is extremely difficult to convince people that something that is legal is wrong. Look at slavery. It was illegal in the North, but legal in the South. Try to convince people in the South, then, that slavery is wrong. It took a war to end it, and even then the people didn' t believe that it was wrong. Their minds were never changed.

But now slavery, agreed with or not, is still illegal accross the board.

And those slaves were people that they could *see*. They believed that their slave laws were morally upstanding and even fair to and protective of the black people. Try convincing a bunch of people that a person they can't see, a person that looks like a cluster of cells, that can't live on its own, is a person with rights, and that they, the person you can see, who looks like a person, who can live on her own, has no rights (as they will understand the argument).

That is the exact argument I heard a Catholic give for allowing abortion. She was a director of an abortion clinic, and she said, "If I have to choose between an embryo or the girl sitting in front of me, I will always choose the girl sitting in front of me."
That woman was later excommunicated. But there is the argument.

Changing minds is never easy. If it's legal, people will insist that it's correct. Even using the example of slavery won't work, because the pro-choice people don't think that the unborn is a person with legal rights.

If you make it illegal, those people will still argue that the unborn shouldn't have any rights, just as those in the South argued that ending slavery was wrong.

But what we're really talking about here is a very local thing,. It's about saving one baby at a time. You can help to change one woman's mind.

If you hope to change minds, though, you can't do it by looking like a lunatic.

Your logic makes absolute sense. And your strategy is equally as good. You make a very convincing argument, you do. I am just not impressed with the outcomes of our current policy's. I feel that we are always on the defensive. We protest, stand outside in the cold(or hot) hold up our signs of babies. People go into PP and come out of PP. We get spit on and flipped off. Most of our current liberal social poicy's were born out of revolution, including, Roe. Unless we want to see another 40 million killed, we should launch our own "second wave" of attacks. Right now, abortion is a little discussed topic in households. I want to out ton the front burner. And if the best we can achieve is banning Roe except in the case of the, well defined, "health of the mother", rape and incest, then I will consider that a victory. Then we can focus our currently limited resources on saving those lives.(rape, incest) instead of using our limited resources on changing the hearts and minds of the whole nation.

Let's give the media something to print, that cannot be ignored by almost everyone. We will not look like a few "nut's", but a massive movement. Bold moves. Bold moves will bring it back to the national debate. We have Rev. Wright, and Obama is still pushing forward. We have Al Gore, and the global warming hoax is still pushing forward. We have Rev. Michael Pfleger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjJlsGrlbUs) of Chicago, and he still has his tax exempt status.

[leftistdestroye]

Kalt,

I know these threads can get heated, but I want you to know, that I consider you an ally in this war, even though we disagree on how to fight it. I know nothing about you except from what I have seen on this one particular thread, and I admire your logic and strategy. I do.

Peace and God Bless

[kalt]

Originally Posted by Danny OC

You seem to only care about the big picture. Of course that is important, probably the most important; but individual cases are still worth fighting for also. If you can use a method that prevents one life from being destroyed; who cares if it is seen as "lunatic" and "will not convince most people that legal abortion is wrong"?

The underground railroad operators didn't care that slavery was legal, or that their actions would not convince the masses that slavery was wrong. They did what they did because it meant everything to those that they were able to save. The same is true with standing outside an abortion clinic, doing whatever you can to save the baby.

You missed the last two lines of my last post.

[kalt]

Originally Posted by Danny OC

And one more note: based on your initial assessment of the situation in your initial post that created this thread, kalt, it really is wrong to summarize the situation as "two older men yelling 'loser' at a woman going in." That is an entirely unjust way of conveying it. If I am not mistaken, what actually happened was they were yelling "only losers go in there," and "don't be a loser." That is completely different. Let's be fair.

"Only losers go in there" yelled at someone who is "going in there".

[kalt]

Originally Posted by leftistdestroye

Kalt,

I know these threads can get heated, but I want you to know, that I consider you an ally in this war, even though we disagree on how to fight it. I know nothing about you except from what I have seen on this one particular thread, and I admire your logic and strategy. I do.

Peace and God Bless

I think we actually agree. This has to come from the top. The leaders have to know that the majority will stand behind them, or they won't support the cause.

Few politicians today care enough about abortion to risk the next election on standing up for the pro-life side. They might give it lip service when it's expedient, but they won't put their jobs on the line for it.

Who knows what the future will bring.

Global warming. I remember being a little kid and worrying that my area of the country was supposed to be under a sheet of ice about now. I finally figured that as long as I had a good, warm winter coat, I would be OK. lol

The enviro nuts have done a lot of good for the country, though. I can remember the highways being littered w/ junk--every mile of them! They're the ones who preserve open spaces.

I figure we need a balance.

If it were up to the pure capitalists, there wouldn't be a tree left in a city. All space would be taken up by some sort of money-making business. And of course the pure capitalists would buy their McMansion in the burbs and plant lots of trees on their 1.75 acres.

[Danny OC]

Originally Posted by kalt

You missed the last two lines of my last post.

Well, let's get more specific here. Certainly I agree that you shouldn't act like a lunatic. But from what I can see, the two men you refer to were not acting like lunatics.

Saying someone will be a loser if she goes into an abortion clinic, as she is walking into an abortion clinic, is VERY different from directly calling her a loser; it is giving her a chance to not be one. That was clearly their goal. And honestly, if anybody at all can be rightly classified as a "loser," that isn't a label that should be withheld from someone on her way to murder a baby.

[Matt33]

wonder wht the reaction would be if they were talking dogs into a dog beating clinic. Wonder if people woul be mad at those yellling?

[Ceil-1]

I agree we are not anry enough. There are not enough of us. Most of us just don't care enough to make the sacrifice.

A presence at the entrance is better than nobody. That way, the girl will at least know she has an ally. Someone to turn to if she is having second thoughts. Her voice of conscience in cases where she is confused.

I don't agree that all women know what they are doing. They are dealing with a crisis. Their are in a very vulnerable position and their hormones are raging. They need a firm, but loving hand.

The abortionists and their allies, however, need a different approach. We have the right to be angry at them. We should be angry. At least as angry as feminists and immigrants and other groups. Hey, at least we'd get coverage. When was the last time you saw your friends at Washington, in spite of the tens of thousands of voices? I'lll lbet you if someone misbehaved we'd get on the news, all right.

Those that speak out will be ridiculed. I remember when that poor Intercessors of the Lamb priest glued himself to the door in Rochester. Oh, how they villified and mocked him. Yet. he would never have been on television had he not done such a thing. The incident sparked controversy. In the eyes of God, this man is a hero of the faith. He literallty sacrificed himself for the cause of the little ones. I wouldn't mind standing at the judgement throne if I were him. Think of the deafening voices of those he sacrificed his reputation for calling for his praises.

Yes, I would rather be him than some of us, with the Lord asking us why we allowed this. The more I think about it, the more I shudder.

[Chris LaRock]

Originally Posted by Valke2

I have a dream that one day someone will be able to discuss planned parenthood or abortion without referring to the holocaust.

Abortion is the modern day holocaust. It's perfectly logical to draw the comparison.

[Chris LaRock]

Originally Posted by kalt

See, this is where you guys are wrong. It's *not* your choice to make. It's not about what you will and won't "allow".

Because abortion is legal, you have no right to disallow it.

You guys have to learn to deal with the legal status of abortion.

If you really feel the need to scream at people, go to your politicians and scream your heads off.

Pro-slavery people used similar arguments against abolishinists as well.

"it's not your plantation, your crop, or your property."

[THurifer2]

Originally Posted by kalt

T
Well, before they told her that, they screamed (!), "Don't do it! Are you a loser?! Only losers go in there! Don't be a loser!"

After that they added to stuff about God's loving her.

?

What would a person say to a woman who took her child out of a car and placed the child in the middle of a street and then took a sledgehammer and raised it up HIGH abover her head readying to drop it with full force onto the child to kill it....what would you say if you were standing nearby? Would you scream DON"T DO IT? Would you cry out?
Perhaps these men see the obvious fact that there is really no difference between the sledgehammer situation and an abortion clinic.