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  #1  
Old May 13, '08, 12:07 pm
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Default Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

Karl's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

Topic:

NO MORE LAY PREACHING

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http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_080513.asp
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  #2  
Old May 13, '08, 12:28 pm
convertjanet convertjanet is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

I'm sure many will argue this is just another example of how the Church suppresses the voice of women. However, Karl is dead-on in his letter: the homily belongs strictly to the Priest. Many confuse this issue and then think Priests are somehow "higher up" than lay people, women in particular. That concept is wrong. The laity, including women, are equal in stature to Priests, however, we each have different roles in the Body of Christ. This, among other reasons, is why women are not Priests.

Whatever the reason the Bishop made the decision, he at last put an end to an abuse. That strengthens the Body of Christ. Praise God!

The women and men in the lay preaching can surely find other opportunities to share God's word: teaching bible studies etc. I pray the lay preachers will act obediently!
  #3  
Old May 13, '08, 12:50 pm
RCR RCR is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

Under Archbishop Flynn vocations have flourished - I believe he's ordained 90 priests in his 14 years here in Minnesota. Our seminary is full. Catholic education thrives. There are roughly 30 perpetual adoration chapels in the archdiocese.

But go ahead: pick on the guy while he's on his way to a much-earned retirement. Many of us in Minneapolis and St. Paul are delighted at the Catholic renaissance that's happened under his leadership.
  #4  
Old May 13, '08, 1:00 pm
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

Everytime I hear about wacky liturgies, dissenting priests, and atrocious touchy-feely-New Age-womyn educational, retreat or other gatherings, I have, over the last couple of decades, built up the automatic response in my mind: "I bet this is in Minnesota somewhere." Conservatively speaking, 8 out of 10 times, this turns out to be the case.

Bishop Flynn, thank you for your service and please enjoy your retirement. Bishop Nienstedt: welcome!!
  #5  
Old May 13, '08, 1:34 pm
jemsforty jemsforty is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

I agree with 'converjanet'. I am embarrassed when women in the Catholic Faith whine because they are not Priests. There are so many other things to do to promote the Faith.

As far as Karl Keating's E-Letter, wrong is wrong and right is right. He has pointed out the canon law on the issue. It makes one wonder if the Bishops know the laws or just choose to ignore them.

As for preaching, I have to wonder each week, just where in canon does it specify that the homilies must be brief and boring.
I have heard Deacons make the point and sit down. Priest, for the most part,( with the exception of a few Franciscans in our area) have succombed to reading their homily. This becomes a tedious, nap time. I am entertained watching males in the pews in front of me nod off and to the total amusement of their children, as I try to sort out what the point of the homily is.

I took my 11 year old granddaughter to our church since she was spending a weekend with us. On the way, she asked if our priest is as 'boring' as their's. When we were on our way home, with some prodding for information, she reluctantly stated she thought ours was worse. After the usual reading of the notes, the priest made the bold statement that Jesus walked on water and we should too. Then proceeded to be seated. There were more than a few heads swiveling and looking confused.

I encouraged my granddaughter to find something she could relate to in every homily. Maybe it's only one thing...but look for it. (At least she'll be paying attention by looking for that one thing and maybe something will grab her).

So although the canon says 'no', I would appreciate a woman, a man off the street, a nun, anybody who could get up there, touch on the Gospel, connect it to the everyday church goers lives and sit down. Of course, I would prefer that 'someone' be my pastor.
  #6  
Old May 13, '08, 1:41 pm
HankTurowski HankTurowski is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

MR. KEATING:

Thank you for everything you do. I read your E-Letters with great anticipation. You have uncommon insight. I hope this doesn't sound like one of the many nit-picky E-Letter responses you must get every day, but I would like to ask you a favor.

I noticed in your 13 May E-Letter that you omitted titles from the main characters - calling the outgoing Archbishop "Flynn" or "Harry Flynn" and the incoming Archbishop "John Nienstedt". I take exception to this, and I think for a good reason - if only for a personal one.

Three years ago I was on a cruise that had the good fortune of including a priest. I went to Mass every morning and struck up several conversations with the priest on board. He was from New York, extremely liberal, and quite disappointed with the current situation in Rome, which he called "a huge step backward." And of course he insisted I call him John (not his real name).

I politely refused and for two weeks addressed him as "Father". He seemed a bit perturbed, until I explained how I was happy he was on the ship AND thankful that he was a priest, and grateful that he could perform that special miracle every day for me and the few others who participated. Nobody else in a hundred miles could do that but him. It warranted nothing less than my total respect - despite the fact that I didn't agree with much of his philosophy. So it was never going to be "John" between us. When I told him that, in my own stumbling way, his eyes welled up with tears, which set me aback and got me thinking. It clearly affected him in a positive way that I thought of him as incredibly special.

Maybe everybody called Archbishop Flynn "Harry", and he enjoyed being one of the common people. And over time, maybe he forgot how special he was/is and how important the Mass is. And maybe that's why the homily became a lay person's event in Minnesota.

Priests, Deacons, and Bishops are gloriously special, and I for one, would appreciate it if you kept the titles (and respectful tone) in the E-Letter.

HANK
  #7  
Old May 13, '08, 2:31 pm
OurLadyOfEfes OurLadyOfEfes is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

I feel the reason that it was done on AB Flynn's Birthday was a middle way. It really was the Coadjutor's desire to stop this abuse and since it was done under the pen of AB Flynn he does not get direct blame for it nor does AB Flynn get blamed as he is leaving that same day and also stated it was not his desire to do this as shown by the past 13 years of not doing anything.

So no one gets the brunt of the reaction this = the middle way. Also of note is that same weekend we have been assigned a new vicar general! THis is huge. There were also a bunch of other moves as well.

Watch to see what happens at the University of St. Thomas in the coming months.

I am a local so visit my blog for additional news about the happenings at the Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis.
http://utunumsint-mn.blogspot.com/
  #8  
Old May 13, '08, 3:51 pm
BeatGuy83 BeatGuy83 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

Dear Mr. Keating:

I am writing in response to your May 13th E-letter about lay preaching in the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and Saint Paul. I am a 24-year old Catholic, recently married, who has lived most of my life under the pastoral care of Archbishop Flynn. I am a Catholic school teacher and my wife teaches the Creighton Model of natural family planning. I am currently working towards my graduate degree in Catholic Studies at the University of Saint Thomas.

I was greatly intrigued by your E-letter topic as I have attended one or two parishes in MN over the years in which lay preaching took place. I have never agreed with it and agree completely with your canonical defense of the homily. It is necessary and proper for an ordained minister to preach to his parish.

But I am greatly offended by your characterization of Archbishop Flynn. In your letter you stated that "In not a few cases the appointment of a coadjutor--a bishop with a right of succession--is a sign of the Vatican's disapproval of how the current bishop has been doing. I have not followed the situation in St. Paul-Minneapolis closely enough to know whether that was the case there..." Archbishop Flynn is retiring, Mr. Keating, because he has reached the Vatican-approved age of retirement for a bishop--75 years old. He was assigned a coadjutor because the archdiocese is large. Archbishop Neinstedt is now pastor of a flock over 20 times the size of his original diocese. It's a lot to handle and he needed to learn the ropes.

It bothers me that you did not bother to think about or research this facet of the situation more closely. Archbishop Flynn has saved many Catholic schools from closing, he has reached out to the poor in the area, he has been a regular visitor to the Minnesota Legislature to speak on life issues, and has helped the local minor seminary, Saint John Vianney, grow into the largest in the United States. A few years ago we ordained 16 priests! Our local priesthood is growing in size when most metropolitan dioceses are shrinking.

But all that aside, the man is a successor to the apostles. He is one of the shepherds of the Catholic community. You admitted in your letter that you have "not followed the situation...closely enough". You admit you met him...once. And yet you feel comfortable writing " Well, maybe there was a reason, beyond the archbishop's request, that the Vatican assigned him a coadjutor." What malice is in your writing! What a snide remark from a man who admits he hasn't followed the situation!

You write that "I know enough about human nature to know that motives usually are mixed." How true this is. Mr. Keating, you head an organization that reaches hundreds of thousands daily. It claims to help all people understand the truth of the Catholic Church. So why do you insist on lambasting one of the Church's shepherds? I think you might agree with me when I say that one of the problems of American heterodoxy is that it encourages people to think the Church is somehow a democracy. And yet you have fallen into that trap here--assuming that you have some sort of "say" in pastoral decisions that are not even in your area of the country! What is the purpose of your E-letter? Is it to build up your fellow Catholics and help unlock the truth for them? If so, is commenting on Archbishop Flynn's life and legacy in a negative way helping to do that when you admit you haven't taken the time to get the facts straight? Simply put, neither you nor I are archbishops and might not realize the full truth of the situation he is in.

I write to you not out of anger, but of compassion. Mr. Keating, to put it simply, you are better than this. You write that "These 1,700 words take me less time to write than would a 200-word commentary." I would beg of you, for the sake of our Catholic Church in this country, take more time when you write. Do not toss your words casually into the wind and do harm to your fellow Catholics. Continue to love them, pray for them, forgive them, and support them when they are in positions of leadership. Use the archdiocese as an example of lay preaching and how bad decisions can be made, but resist with all your might the temptation to take cheap shots at those who are in charge. Making snide comments about an archbishop is in bad taste.

I will continue to pray for your ministry which has touched so many lives, including mine.

Sincerely,
J. Rogers

"Grant, O merciful God, that I may ardently desire, prudently examine, truthfully acknowledge, and perfectly accomplish what is pleasing to Thee for the Praise and glory of Thy Name." --Saint Thomas Aquinas

Last edited by BeatGuy83; May 13, '08 at 4:03 pm.
  #9  
Old May 13, '08, 5:27 pm
davidcoit davidcoit is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatGuy83 View Post
But I am greatly offended by your characterization of Archbishop Flynn. In your letter you stated that "In not a few cases the appointment of a coadjutor--a bishop with a right of succession--is a sign of the Vatican's disapproval of how the current bishop has been doing. I have not followed the situation in St. Paul-Minneapolis closely enough to know whether that was the case there..." Archbishop Flynn is retiring, Mr. Keating, because he has reached the Vatican-approved age of retirement for a bishop--75 years old. He was assigned a coadjutor because the archdiocese is large. Archbishop Neinstedt is now pastor of a flock over 20 times the size of his original diocese. It's a lot to handle and he needed to learn the ropes.

It bothers me that you did not bother to think about or research this facet of the situation more closely. Archbishop Flynn has saved many Catholic schools from closing, he has reached out to the poor in the area, he has been a regular visitor to the Minnesota Legislature to speak on life issues, and has helped the local minor seminary, Saint John Vianney, grow into the largest in the United States. A few years ago we ordained 16 priests! Our local priesthood is growing in size when most dioceses are shrinking.

But all that aside, the man is a successor to the apostles. He is one of the shepherds of the Catholic community. You admitted in your letter that you have "not followed the situation...closely enough". You admit you met him...once. And yet you feel comfortable writing " Well, maybe there was a reason, beyond the archbishop's request, that the Vatican assigned him a coadjutor." What malice is in your writing! What a snide remark from a man who admits he hasn't followed the situation!

Great letter. I too think that Karl Keating is off base in his remarks.

I'm glad that Catholic's in Archbishop Flynn Diocese have come to his defense. But I still have to question why it took so long for the Bishop to put a stop to the "lay preaching". It does seem a bit odd, now doesn't it?
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  #10  
Old May 13, '08, 6:10 pm
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tedfay tedfay is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

Mr. Keating,

I do not debate the substance of your letter. I believe you are correct.

However, I ask that in the future you use a more respectful tone. You use derogatory words, such as "blather," and also use sarcastic remarks, such as, "('Dang! Why do I have to be so thoughtful? I really would prefer to restrict all the preaching to myself, but I feel compelled to empower my parishioners.')"

Being from Dallas, Texas, I have no idea what is going on in Minnesota. However, even if the bishop's failure is manifest and grave, he is still the ordained bishop there. The priests who allowed "lay preaching" during mass are still priests. Their very offices command respect - respect you owe them even when you describe what they are doing as contrary to Church law.

Additionally, I ask you to consider what you hope to accomplish using derogatory terms and sarcastic messages. Are you trying to bring about change? Usually when you attack people they become defensive and dig in their heels; they don't change. If you are trying to change people's minds, then simple, unembellished, and irrefutable logic works best. As an experienced lawyer, I know this strategy works more often than the spun tale.

Thank you for your consideration and also your dedication to the Church. The work you do has helped me to become a better Catholic.

Yours in Christ,
Ted Fay
  #11  
Old May 13, '08, 7:42 pm
CapaxDei CapaxDei is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

Quote:
(Baumer seems to be motivated by a grievance. She says that “The suppression of lay preaching is simultaneously the suppression of female voices, because no matter how God has gifted a lay woman to break open the Word, the community will not have access to that word as it gathers on Sunday.”)
A woman who has the gift of "breaking open the word" can become a writer. She can write a blog. Who is stopping these women from doing that?
  #12  
Old May 13, '08, 8:32 pm
Karl Keating Karl Keating is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankTurowski View Post

I noticed in your 13 May E-Letter that you omitted titles from the main characters - calling the outgoing Archbishop "Flynn" or "Harry Flynn" and the incoming Archbishop "John Nienstedt". I take exception to this ...

Priests, Deacons, and Bishops are gloriously special, and I for one, would appreciate it if you kept the titles (and respectful tone) in the E-Letter.

HANK
Thanks, Hank, for relating the incident (which I elided from this quotation).

In my articles and E-Letter I use the standard journalist practice of referring to people by their surnames, after an initial introduction using their titles (either directly before their names, as in "Fr. Wizzlebotham Smith," or in appositives following their names, as in "Thomas More, the Lord Chancellor"). No disrespect is meant to the office or to the individuals. (For example, in journalism the Pope often is referred to as "Benedict" or "Benedict XVI," after an initial use of "Pope Benedict XVI.")

When, for sake of variety, I want to avoid using a person's name again, I use either the pronoun or his title. Again, standard practice.

I use similar principles when writing about saints. In most cases, when referring to a saint, I am referring to something he did or wrote in life--prior to his canonization, of course. So it was "Augustine" who sat down to write "The City of God," not "St. Augustine." (He wasn't dead yet.)

When using pronouns that refer to the Godhead, I follow the style used in Bibles: lower-case. One of my favorite writers, Msgr. Ronald Knox (see, here I use his title, when first mentioning him, so the reader will know he was a priest; later I will use just his surname), singlehandedly translated the entire Bible from the Vulgate into English, and he wrote in defense of the lower-case style.

I never would write about a bishop or a priest using just his first name, unless I were quoting someone or trying to make a sardonic point, as when referring to a priest in the chummy way he wants his congregants to refer to him: "Fr. Bob then engaged in a little liturgical dancing."

Some priest-friends I call by their given names, at their own prompting (some of them I knew long before they became priests: "I knew you when you were just a Mister"); with other priests, such as my own pastor (who is ten years my junior), I use "Father" alone or "Father" plus his surname.
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  #13  
Old May 13, '08, 8:53 pm
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

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Originally Posted by CapaxDei View Post
A woman who has the gift of "breaking open the word" can become a writer. She can write a blog. Who is stopping these women from doing that?
Lack of a captive audience.
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  #14  
Old May 14, '08, 7:47 am
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of May 13, 2008

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Originally Posted by jemsforty View Post
.... Priest, for the most part,( with the exception of a few Franciscans in our area) have succombed to reading their homily. ...
Well, there's reading and then there's reading.

The Pope reads all his speeches and homilies and I think they're great! There is tremendous depth and polish to his homilies, and by reading, he makes sure to get everything just right.

But, more on the point, first of all, what's wrong with calling a homily a sermon? I like sermon. I thought all my life I was listening to sermons, and now the political correctness cops come along and now a sermon is a "homily." It's a difference without a distinction, if you ask me.

"Homily" sounds like "hominy" and it makes me hungry. but, everything makes me hungry.

I propose a solution to any situation where a lay person gets up to speak at the time set aside for a sermon -- leave.

We're in another decade where we're still talking about the same old things. Well, just get up and leave. Your worship experience has been destroyed, and you've been cheated by the revisionists. What prevents you from just getting up and leaving? They're in your face, so why not just get up in their face?

80% or more of Catholics don't attend Mass, and there's still no one reaching out to them (to me). There's just the same old blather about "fallen away" and "lapsed" Catholics. I think it's the ones who are pushing us out of the Church with their self-appointed interpretations and prideful liturgies who have done that. Oh, sure, let's make certain that no two sunday liturgies are ever the same or ever follow the NO.

Wrong. Not in MY church.
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Old May 14, '08, 9:42 am
mnpapist mnpapist is offline
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Default Problems with His Excellency (The Hostile Takeover)

His Excellecy Harry Flynn seems to be afraid to confront difficult issues. It took intervention from Rome to stop the Rainbow sash militia. Now it took a co-adjutor to deal with liturgical abuse. That said I would rank problems with lay preaching and Karl Keating's allegedly "disrespectful" tone when writing about such abuses as one of the least of our worries here in Mpls/St. Paul.

His Excellency Harry Flynn has recently seen fit to relieve the incoming Archbishop of the responsibility of running the largest revenue-generating institution in the Archdiocese - namely the University of St. Thomas. In doing this he has severed the 125-year relationship between the University and the Archdiocese. The University's Chairmain of the Board has always been the sitting Archbishop - Since John Ireland himself. The sitting Vicar General has always been the Vice Chair. The president has always been appointed with the approval of these two offices. Now Archbishop Flynn gets to continue to Chair the board at the University and his friend the previous Vicar General remains the Vice Chair. Their friend the President Father Dease remains in as well with a hefty salary to go with it.

At best this is a scandalous situation. It appears an Archbishop has attempted to run away with control of a Diocesan University before his succesor assumed the helm. Please pray for a resolution to this so that at least one Catholic institution of higher education might remain somewhat Catholic in its identity.


If you want to read more, please visit:
www.docsociety.org

God Bless all of you.
Mike
Minneapolis
 

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