CHARISMATIC HYSTERIA

[condan]

Originally Posted by Prometheum_x

Regarding the importation of protestant ideas: A common assumption is that "it's a protestant thing" is a sufficient reason to regard something with disdain. Some protestants hold to such awful ideas as the Trinity and infant baptism. Some protestants even go so far as to sacrifice their lives for the sake of the Gospel as missionaries in extremely anti-Christian places around the world. I would also remind you that God used a donkey to speak the word of the Lord to Baalam. You may regard protestans as donkeys, but God can still use them to speak proclaim his word.

Abuses due to the Charismatic Movement? Certainly, but abuses do not in of themselves prove a movement to be a bad thing. If that were the case, the greatest movement the world as ever seen -- Christianity -- would be a fraud too.

My personal observations in my own parish are very much in line with the original poster. I do not believe, however, that what I see are true and authentic Charasmatic Catholics. I think they are more cafeteria Catholics who like the trappings of the Charasmatic movement like banjos, guitars, holding hands, mass-as-entertainment, etc.

With that said, many of our Protestant brothers and sisters do share a good portion of our beliefs. However, there are many core items where we do not agree. Sola fide is one. Sola scriptura is another. Those are big ticket items. A third is that they feel that each is allowed his own interpretation of scripture. The bottom line is that they broke with the one true faith. I think that is why many more traditionally minded Catholicsdon't see the logic or value in the Charasmatic movement.

But that's just me.

[TeAmo]

Originally Posted by Prometheum_x

Regarding electric guitars, drums, and other such instruments: While Vatican II doesn't say that such instruments should be used, neither does it prohibit their use. Organ and Gregorian chant are preferred, but provision is made for other instruments that are suitable for sacred music. What is suitable for sacred music is somewhat a matter of cultural context. At one time the piano was explicitly prohibited, but that is no longer the case. What has changed? The piano used to be associated with the bar and theater: its primary context was a popular one, and a rather seedy one at that. That is no longer the case. While the piano is still used for popular music, so is the organ and I have heard chants used in New Age music. The use of organ and chant in popular music does not necessarily disqualify them and the same should apply to other musical instruments and expressions. If anyone feels there is some reason why a particular instrument is inappropriate for the Mass, please give a thorough explanation. If your reason is that it simply doesn't seem right to you, it could simply be a matter of taste. That's fine with me. Don't try to turn your cultural tastes into something that is binding on everyone else.

.

I completely agree with what you've written- however, I also think that, arguing from what you've just said, a case can be made against the use of electric guitars. You used the example of the piano, saying that it had been banned because it was associated with the theatre and bars. What is the electric guitar currently associated with? The first thing that comes to my mind is rock concerts. That's why I don't think it's appropriate to use them in mass, but I do agree with you that they're not explicitly prohibited. And perhaps the appropriateness of using them will change over time, just as with the case with the piano. I guess it just comes down to the pastors to decide, using prudence to make a good judgement.

[tom.wineman]

How do you determine at these charismatic services if the participants are full of the Holy Ghost or experiencing a self induced euphoria similar to the whirling dervish in Turkey ?

[condan]

Originally Posted by tom.wineman

How do you determine at these charismatic services if the participants are full of the Holy Ghost or experiencing a self induced euphoria similar to the whirling dervish in Turkey ?

Good question! I once had Charasmatics pray over me in tongues. Not to be disrespectful, but I didn't get anything out of it or feel any different. On the other hand, I have had a priest put his hand on me at a healing Mass and I am absolutely sure I felt the white light of the Holy Ghost. (It wasn't one of these emotional things. Just a regular Mass, preceeded by the full 15 decades of the Rosary. After Mass, the priest put his hand on people's head. An experience I will never forget!)

I heard recently on an EWTN daily Mass homily that the Holy Ghost will never lead one away from the Church so I am always sceptical when I hear about people "following their conscience" as they are "directed by the Holy Spirit" to some practice that is contrary to Sacred Tradition, i.e., contraception, female or married priests, etc.

[misericordie]

Well, I see some still don't get it. It is actually sad that there is such a NEED by some catholics to digest and import protestant ideas or worse, mimic them. The One Holy Catholic Church as "Mater et Magistra" (Mother and Teacher) has the fullness of the truth. To dance to the beat of heretical protestant music, and say that all is beutiful and fine with protestant (usually the worse kind: pentecostals, evangelicals, baptists, etc: fundamentalists: strongly ANTI-Catholic) beliefes, is outright HERESY and the sin of Liberalism. If only some of these fundamentalist "churches" would think (for a change) that US CATHOLICS can contribute something to THEIR version of truth. However, NOT. They PREACH Catholics do the weird Sign of the Cross, pray to statues(some charismatics say the same thing, ) pray to Mary, that we are guilty of idolotry, that we are the great Babylon, that the Pope is the ANTI-Christ, that we INVENTED most of what we have, that the Catholic Church only came fronm the Emperor Constantine, etc, etc, etc,. Well, I belive any catholic who associates with any "church" which has and promotes that type of mentality really needs to examine his or her faith seriously. It would be great if the great document by Josef Cardinal Ratzinger could be studied. The document is entitled: DOMINUS IESU. "The Catholic Church contains the fullness of the truth."

[Prometheum_x]

Originally Posted by misericordie

Well, I see some still don't get it. It is actually sad that there is such a NEED by some catholics to digest and import protestant ideas or worse, mimic them. The One Holy Catholic Church as "Mater et Magistra" (Mother and Teacher) has the fullness of the truth. To dance to the beat of heretical protestant music, and say that all is beutiful and fine with protestant (usually the worse kind: pentecostals, evangelicals, baptists, etc: fundamentalists: strongly ANTI-Catholic) beliefes, is outright HERESY and the sin of Liberalism. If only some of these fundamentalist "churches" would think (for a change) that US CATHOLICS can contribute something to THEIR version of truth. However, NOT. They PREACH Catholics do the weird Sign of the Cross, pray to statues(some charismatics say the same thing, ) pray to Mary, that we are guilty of idolotry, that we are the great Babylon, that the Pope is the ANTI-Christ, that we INVENTED most of what we have, that the Catholic Church only came fronm the Emperor Constantine, etc, etc, etc,. Well, I belive any catholic who associates with any "church" which has and promotes that type of mentality really needs to examine his or her faith seriously. It would be great if the great document by Josef Cardinal Ratzinger could be studied. The document is entitled: DOMINUS IESU. "The Catholic Church contains the fullness of the truth."

The Catholic Church is Mother and Teacher and it contains the fulness of the truth. This is one of the reasons why I became Catholic. I moved from thinking that the claim to the fulness of the truth was somewhat arrogant to wholeheartedly believing it, and that is where I still remain.

That being said, the Church, while it will not teach what is false, is in no way prevented from failing to teach that truth in the best way possible. Nor does it fully understand the truth that has been entrusted to it, as evidenced by the Church gradually coming to understand the nature of Christ.

It is something of a strawman argument to paint all Charismatics as wanting to "dance to the beat of heretical protestant music" and saying "all is beautiful and fine with protestant beliefs". I for one take no pleasure in trying to be as protestant as I can get away with, nor do I think that all is beautiful and fine with protestant beliefs. Not at all.

So, instead of making an emotional argument based on the existence of evil anti-Catholics, please mention specific things that have been imported from protestant circles and why they are bad.

[Prometheum_x]

Originally Posted by condan

My personal observations in my own parish are very much in line with the original poster. I do not believe, however, that what I see are true and authentic Charasmatic Catholics. I think they are more cafeteria Catholics who like the trappings of the Charasmatic movement like banjos, guitars, holding hands, mass-as-entertainment, etc.

With that said, many of our Protestant brothers and sisters do share a good portion of our beliefs. However, there are many core items where we do not agree. Sola fide is one. Sola scriptura is another. Those are big ticket items. A third is that they feel that each is allowed his own interpretation of scripture. The bottom line is that they broke with the one true faith. I think that is why many more traditionally minded Catholicsdon't see the logic or value in the Charasmatic movement.

But that's just me.

There are indeed many "Charismatic" Catholics who just like the trappings of the Charismatic movement. There are some for whom being "Charismatic" is just an excuse to do things however the heck they want to do them. For them, the mass becomes about them having "a good worship experience" rather than worshipping God.

[Prometheum_x]

Originally Posted by TeAmo

I completely agree with what you've written- however, I also think that, arguing from what you've just said, a case can be made against the use of electric guitars. You used the example of the piano, saying that it had been banned because it was associated with the theatre and bars. What is the electric guitar currently associated with? The first thing that comes to my mind is rock concerts. That's why I don't think it's appropriate to use them in mass, but I do agree with you that they're not explicitly prohibited. And perhaps the appropriateness of using them will change over time, just as with the case with the piano. I guess it just comes down to the pastors to decide, using prudence to make a good judgement.

You are absolutely right: a case can be made against the use of electric guitars, or at least against the use of electric guitars in a popular way. Just as there is a difference between playing a piece of sacred music on the piano and playing ragtime, there are different ways of using the electric guitar. Electric guitars can be used in a variety of ways, especially with the technology that we have today. At my parish, the electric guitar is never the primary instrument and it serves primarily to fill out the sound. It's never used in a "let's go moshing" style. The most important factor is how an instrument is used.

[Prometheum_x]

Originally Posted by condan

Good question! I once had Charasmatics pray over me in tongues. Not to be disrespectful, but I didn't get anything out of it or feel any different. On the other hand, I have had a priest put his hand on me at a healing Mass and I am absolutely sure I felt the white light of the Holy Ghost. (It wasn't one of these emotional things. Just a regular Mass, preceeded by the full 15 decades of the Rosary. After Mass, the priest put his hand on people's head. An experience I will never forget!)

I heard recently on an EWTN daily Mass homily that the Holy Ghost will never lead one away from the Church so I am always sceptical when I hear about people "following their conscience" as they are "directed by the Holy Spirit" to some practice that is contrary to Sacred Tradition, i.e., contraception, female or married priests, etc.

I'm very glad that you were able to experience the Holy Spirit when the priest put his hand on you. However, what you are presenting is rather anecdotal evidence; it isn't statistically significant. It does raise a question: How do we know whether the Holy Spirit is doing anything or not?

Many times, when God is doing wonderful and amazing things, we really don't feel anything. But thanks be to God that the truth isn't based on emotions or feelings! I may feel alone, or that God is doing nothing in my life, but that isn't true. I've read stories about saints who went through very dry times in their life, or when I receive communion, I know that this is Jesus, body, blood, soul, and divinity, medicine for the soul, great spiritual nourishment -- but I may not feel anything. My lack of feelings does not somehow cause Jesus to be any less present or to be working in my life any less.

How do we know whether it is the Holy Spirit or just some self-induced state? Well, one thing (not the only thing) to look for would be the fruit. If it is causing people to fall away from the faith, it's a pretty bad thing. But if it is causing people to grow in the faith, it might very well be a good thing.

[Pani Rose]

I have read you rancor and it is very sad, because most of you have no idea of what you are talking about. There were those who tried to share the truth with you about the renewal, but you were more interested in shouting them down, than listening and possibly learning something.

Here is an exerpt from the Popes address on the Eve of Pentecost 2004, if you notice he calls the Charismatic Renewal into the center of the church: 3. I greet in a special way the members of Renewal in the Spirit, one of the expressions of the great family of the Catholic Charismatic Movement. Thanks to the Charismatic Movement, many Christians, men and women, youths and adults, have rediscovered Pentecost as a living and present reality in their daily life. I desire that the spirituality of Pentecost be spread in the Church, as a renewed thrust of prayer, holiness, communion and proclamation.

One of the fruits born by and part of what happens to most "Charismatics" is a great devotion to the Eucharist. As one of 25 years I know this to be true everywhere, and again the Pope refers to the movement brought about by the Charismatic Renewal: In this connection, I encourage the initiative called "Burning Bush," promoted by Renewal in the Spirit. It is about incessant adoration, day and night, before the Most Holy Sacrament; an invitation to the faithful "to return to the Cenacle" so that, united in the contemplation of the Eucharistic mystery, they intercede for the full unity of Christians and the conversion of sinners. I sincerely desire that this initiative lead many to rediscover the gifts of the Spirit, which have their source in Pentecost. Here is the full address http://www.livingwatercommunity.com/...20may%2030.htm

Jesus said you who are without sin may cast the first stone. You are casting an awful lot of stones and you deny the gifts of the Spirit you were given at Baptism and Chrismation/Confirmation. The Church celebrated all of these gifts for it's first eight centuries. Therefore, the Charismatic Renewal is not an import from Protestanitsm, but a continuation of what was always experienced by extrodinary saints like St. Mary of Egypt or St. Thresa of Availa, these gifts never left the Church. They were always there, just not used by everyone. Here is an address by Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM, CAP http://64.4.30.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_l...sislord%2ehtml

And I am not saying there have not been abuses because there have. But the majority of those who term themselves "Charismatics" are very humble people, wanting to serve God and his body. I remember a talk given by the Pope to the first gathering of Charismatic leaders from around the world. After a series of events, he told them with tears in his eyes, "I came to teach you, but you have taught me." Jesus said he was sending us a Spirit of Power, not timidity...all we have to do is say yes. Allow God to stir up in us those gifts given to us at Baptism, Chrismation/Confirmaiton when we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are there in each one of us, all we have to do is earnestly seek Him and He will reveal them to us. After all the Catholic Church is the largest Charismatic Church in the world.

One last thought. Pope Leo the XIII was praying for a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the Church. The night that the Holy Spirit fell on Assua Street was one of those nights that the Holy Pope sat quietly praying for this outpouring. So nothing is by accident!

Go with God!
Pani Rose

[pnewton]

Holy Mother Church has given some specific guidelines on how it's liturgies are to be celebrated and an authority structure to enforce this. Within these limits is a big church. It is big enough for both Tridentine and Novus Ordo Masses. It is big enough for English, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Latin languages. It is big enough for protestants converts and cradle Catholics, for the most solemn worshiper and the most vibrant charasmatic. It is big enough to reach the world for Christ. It is we who are sometimes small.

Those who do not like the Charismatic renewal are still required by Christ to love our brothers and sisters. They are not hysterical and they are not neo-Montanist. Montanism was a heresy and the Charismatic renewal has not been ruled a heresy.

Chartiy still must be the mark by which the world recognizes God in us.

[STJOMO]

Far be it from me to judge the souls and intent of others; there are certainly many ways to beat the devil.

I fall squarely into the traditionalist camp; I like it not at all when anything with a charismatic whiff makes it into a Mass that I'm attending.

But, let's face it; as long as these folks leave the liturgy itself intact (that means, if I understand canon law correctly, leaving all text of the Mass as written) and they are inspired by it, so be it. If it's good enough for the Holy Father, then it certainly is good enough for me.

The only caveat I'd add is that I'd keep charismatic liturgy in one place, if it must occur. Then, I can go to a more orthodox church and not be offended.

[Prometheum_x]

Originally Posted by STJOMO

Far be it from me to judge the souls and intent of others; there are certainly many ways to beat the devil.

I fall squarely into the traditionalist camp; I like it not at all when anything with a charismatic whiff makes it into a Mass that I'm attending.

But, let's face it; as long as these folks leave the liturgy itself intact (that means, if I understand canon law correctly, leaving all text of the Mass as written) and they are inspired by it, so be it. If it's good enough for the Holy Father, then it certainly is good enough for me.

The only caveat I'd add is that I'd keep charismatic liturgy in one place, if it must occur. Then, I can go to a more orthodox church and not be offended.

Charismatics should extend the same favor to traditionalists as they want the traditionalists to extend to them. No charismatic ought to try to impose charismaticism(?) on everyone else.

And, by the way, I am charismatic, if one couldn't tell.

[darcee]

I know several members of the Charismatic Renewal that are rather traditional. Is this an oddity?




-D

[STJOMO]

Maybe I'm confused about what exactly "charismatic" means in this context. But my original point stands.