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  #16  
Old Jul 15, '08, 5:34 am
runandsew runandsew is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
The state of the dead is another subject all together. Which I would love to go into at a later date. However, there is no scripture that explicitly states that Jesus rested the Seventh Day, but as the Bible repeatedly states, and as I said we can go into this at a later date, the dead know not anything, they sleep, see the incident concerning Lazaras and what Jesus says concerning him before he raised him, it would make since that Jesus "rested" for death to a Christian is "rest".
If the dead know nothing then why did Jesus preach to the dead, and why are the elders in heaven presenting the bowls of incense which is the prayers of the saints to God, and why in the parable of the rich man and Lazaras, are both the rich man and Lazaras both conscience, and why do Moses and Elijah both talking to Jesus even though they have been dead for well over 1,000 years?

As for no scriptural evidence for Jesus resting on the Sabbath, you just stated in your previous post that He did rest on the Sabbath.

So to support your theology, you claim something to be true that in not taught in scripture (Jesus resting), and you claim another thing which the New Testament shows not to be true (The dead not knowing anything).

I hope you will have a good explaination later, because you are not off to a good start.
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  #17  
Old Jul 15, '08, 5:38 am
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

If you read the 4th (or 3rd, depending on numbering) in context, you will see that the Sabbath observance had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with worship.

It was about STOPPING WORK. The very Hebrew word means "cessation". This was an enforced rest from labor that extended even to one's slaves and farm animals.

Services were held TWICE DAILY in the Tabernace, the Temple, and after the Exile, in Synagogues.

Traditional synagogues have TWICE DAILY services to this day.
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  #18  
Old Jul 15, '08, 11:45 am
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx View Post
If you read the 4th (or 3rd, depending on numbering) in context, you will see that the Sabbath observance had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with worship.

It was about STOPPING WORK. The very Hebrew word means "cessation". This was an enforced rest from labor that extended even to one's slaves and farm animals.

Services were held TWICE DAILY in the Tabernace, the Temple, and after the Exile, in Synagogues.

Traditional synagogues have TWICE DAILY services to this day.
I really appreciate this explanation.
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  #19  
Old Jul 15, '08, 6:29 pm
Sabbath Keeper Sabbath Keeper is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzleannie View Post
the day Jesus rose from the dead and in so doing made it the Lord's Day, ref. journey to Emmaus when he appeared unrecognized on the eve of that day and explained the entire sequence of events from OT prophecy to its fulfillment and in effect set the form of the Mass as it was celebrated in apostolic times (ref acts) and is still today.
I am sorry but I don't see it. All I see is that Jesus talks with these two concerning the prophecies that he has fulfilled, confirming who he is. There is nothing in this that indicates a change in HIS day. I am refering to where he states that he is "The Lord of the Sabbath", making the Sabbath the "Lord's Day". Look also at Isaiah 58:13-14 "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day: and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words; Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the hight places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father; for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

Are we not heirs of Abraham? Are we not heirs of Jacob? Don't these promises apply to us.

Mark 2: 27-28 "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath; Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord also of the sabbath."

As I've stated before the sabbath was made so man could commune with God on HIS day of rest. There has been no change other that what men have changed. So important a change in the commandment would have been stated either by Christ, the Apostles through Christ's direction or by the Father himself. There is not, fact is when time is finished and God dwells among us we will continue to observe that sabbaths of the Lord.

Isaiah 66:22-23 " For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall yourseed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord"

This is a prophecy from the Old Testament concerning the end of all things, when God will renew the heavens and the earth. If God was going to change his holy day don't you think his prophet would have said so? But he didn't, he confirmed the sabbath as being God's holy day. It makes no sense that the Jews of the old testament would observe the Seventh Day sabbath and that we will be observing it in the new earth but we shouldn't observe it now.

The Lord's Day the is observed on Sunday, the first day, was instituted by man, using manmade traditions to do so. Check out your own church history, even your own leadership admits not having any biblical authority to do so, but it was done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzleannie View Post
if you have a quarrel, take it up with Jesus, not the Church
I do not mean any disrespect to anyone here, do not get me wrong, the is no malice intended. In this type of forum it is hard to show love in the written word, that is the reason I try to express a blessing and an exhortation to come together in reasoning and understanding. God loves us all, Christ died for us all.

May peace abound all the days of your life.
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  #20  
Old Jul 15, '08, 6:48 pm
peary peary is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabbath Keeper View Post
The Lord's Day the is observed on Sunday, the first day, was instituted by man, using manmade traditions to do so. Check out your own church history, even your own leadership admits not having any biblical authority to do so, but it was done.
That is not true. The Lord's Day is observed on the first day of the week (Sunday) because that is the day of Resurrection. the Bible makes this clear in several places. Christians worship on the Lord's Day. We are not under the Old Covenant but the New, and we are not Jews.
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  #21  
Old Jul 16, '08, 10:31 am
marty5150 marty5150 is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peary View Post
That is not true. The Lord's Day is observed on the first day of the week (Sunday) because that is the day of Resurrection. the Bible makes this clear in several places. Christians worship on the Lord's Day. We are not under the Old Covenant but the New, and we are not Jews.
Could you please point me to those passages.
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  #22  
Old Jul 16, '08, 2:01 pm
Eagle wife Eagle wife is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

I am in the process of reading a lot of church history and most of what I have read has said that the early Church made Sunday the principal day of the week, partly to honor the Ressurection of our Lord, and partly to make it clear to the Jewish converts and to the world that Christians were not bound by the details of the Jewish law.
In addition, Emperor Constantine, after the Edit of Milan in 312 BC(which granted religious tolerance in the Roman Empire) declared Sunday to be the sacred day of observance for Christians. He also forbade any kind of public business and servile work on Sunday.
Peace +
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  #23  
Old Jul 16, '08, 3:12 pm
kickinbeat kickinbeat is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

I read somewhere that Emperor Constantine picked Sunday, by the way, Sunday also happened to be the day the Pagans worshipped their Gods.
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  #24  
Old Jul 16, '08, 3:13 pm
davidv davidv is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinbeat View Post
I read somewhere that Emperor Constantine picked Sunday, by the way, Sunday also happened to be the day the Pagans worshipped their Gods.
But not on behalf of the Church, but for his own benefit.
__________________
David
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  #25  
Old Jul 16, '08, 3:14 pm
peary peary is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by marty5150 View Post
Could you please point me to those passages.

AGAIN? Very well:

Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.
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  #26  
Old Jul 16, '08, 4:13 pm
runandsew runandsew is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickinbeat View Post
I read somewhere that Emperor Constantine picked Sunday, by the way, Sunday also happened to be the day the Pagans worshiped their Gods.
Emperor Constantine gets quite a lot of credit for paganizing Christianity by anti-catholics such as:

Sunday worship
Easter
First pope
Declaring the Jesus was divine
And probably more which I didn't think of right at this moment.

I guess under their logic, even though the bishops had gone through severe persecution and would have died for what they believed, they caved into Constantine.
Maybe because it was a compromise to legalize Christianity.

It doesn't matter to them if you can show these things in the Bible or in earlier Christian writings, they have their beliefs and are going to hold on to them.

Who knows why they come up with these things, except maybe to justify their teachings which contradict the Catholic church's.
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  #27  
Old Jul 16, '08, 10:37 pm
bkropp bkropp is offline
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Smile Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Hello everyone,
I was baptized Catholic as an infant, but raised Seventh Day Adventist. I have now found my way home to the Roman Catholic Church.

The Sabbath was never changed by our Lord in the NT. What was changed was the emphasis on love of God and neighbor. That is why the first two commandments were emphasized by our Lord to the apostles. This is in contrast to the many rules and regulations in the OT which are nearly impossible to keep.

The Roman Catholic Church draws it's doctrine from both scripture and tradition. The center piece of our faith (The Eucharist) just happens to be a tradition that was instituted by Jesus himself. Many of the other Church traditions are indeed influenced by Peter and the Apostles who have the authority to bind and loose, which was also instituted by Christ. In order to be a Catholic I guess you have to place some trust in the Chuch that you believe was established by God.

I would give you guys scriptural references but as they say, "Evangelicals know the address, but Catholics know the neighborhood." Ha Ha.
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  #28  
Old Jul 17, '08, 3:56 am
fellowChristian fellowChristian is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Sabbath or Sunday?


Some religious organizations (Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.

for the rest of the article
C A T H O L I C A N S W E R S
http://www.catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp


Tradition / Church Fathers

notice the years

On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure."
Didache, 14 (A.D. 90).

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master."
Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation: because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the lace of the dead and on the first day of the week He arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week He ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven."
Teaching of the Apostles, 2 (A.D. 225).

"Hence it is not possible that the rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh of our God; on the contrary, it is our Saviour who, after the pattern of His own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of His death, and hence also of His resurrection."
Origen, Commentary on John, 2:27 (A.D. 229).

"On the seventh day He rested from all His works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord's day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews, which Christ Himself, the Lord of the Sabbath, says by His prophets that 'His soul hateth;' which Sabbath He in His body abolished.
" Victorinus, On the Creation of the World (A.D. 300).

"They did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we." Eusebius, Church History, 1:4,8 (A.D. 312).

"He [Constantine] also enjoined the observance of the day termed the Lord's day, which the Jews call the first day of the week, and which the pagans dedicate to the sun, as likewise the day before the seventh, and commanded that no judicial or other business should be transacted on those days, but that God should be served with prayers and supplications. He honored the Lord's day, because on it Christ arose from the dead, and the day above mentioned, because on it he was crucified."
Sozomon, Ecclesiastical History, 1:8 (A.D. 443).

"It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord's day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord's day to be had in reverence; and, because he compels the people to judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the per-tidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed. For this which is said by the prophet, 'Ye shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath day', could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of Almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For, if any one says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered: he must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the Apostle Paul saying in opposition to him, 'If ye be circumcised, Christ profiteth you nothing.’”
Pope Gregory the Great [regn. A.D. 590-604],
To the Roman Citizens, Epistle 13:1 (A.D. 597).




Scripture Catholic
SUNDAY WORSHIP
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sunday_worship.html


Seventh Day Adventist
founded by
James and Ellen White c. 1844
what were they before?
Millerites
who founded it?
William Miller c. 1840
what was he before that?
Baptist
who founded it?
John Smyth c. 1605.
what was he before that?
Calvinist
who founded it?
John Calvin c.1555
what was he before?
Roman Catholic
who founded it?
Jesus c. 33 a.d.


The Catholic Church can be traced back to Jesus Himself.
How Old Is Your Church?
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb4.htm
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  #29  
Old Jul 17, '08, 4:13 am
fellowChristian fellowChristian is offline
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Default Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Just in case you didn't do the math..........


Roman Catholic <-------------------------------> Seventh Day Adventist
Jesus c. 33 a.d. <-----------------> James and Ellen White c. 1844



thats 1,811 years later


30s from here
40s
50s
60s
70s
80
90s
100s
200s St. Felix I was pope #26 when Constanine was born 272 c.
300s Constantine was Emperor and died, Catholics were on their 30th pope.
400s
500s
600s
700s
800s
900s
1000s
1100s
1200s
1300s
1400s
1500s before 1517 there was only the Catholic Church
1600s
1700s
1800s to here (in case you needed a visual)
1900s
2000s you are here

The Seventh Day Adventist denomination is only 164 years old.
The Catholic Church is almost 2000 years old.
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  #30  
Old Jul 17, '08, 5:04 am
Yeshua777 Yeshua777 is offline
 
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Smile Re: When did the Church start worship on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fellowChristian View Post
The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished.
So, now there is only 9 (of 10) Commandments?

If so, then WORKING on the day of rest, Saturday is ok as well?

As for worship - I do that EVERYDAY.
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