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  #61  
Old Jul 19, '08, 7:12 pm
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LilyM LilyM is offline
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

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Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas View Post
What do you think about this one? Is this another example of a new "treasure"? It is a 60 something heavy metal monk.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200807...s-d7f4ae7.html
On the basis of that short clip I absolutely can't judge, and neither can you.
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  #62  
Old Jul 19, '08, 7:14 pm
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

It's kid stuff. I'm sure no one here started off at the age of 12 praying the Latin Mass, or understanding the ins and outs of deep theology - we all started with "Hey, Church is cool" for some reason - something that was easy for us to understand and relate to, at that age - a lot of LifeTeen kids end up as FSSP priests and are embarrassed about having been in LifeTeen, but if they had been forbidden to go to LifeTeen, what are the chances they'd even still be Catholic? These kinds of things are uncomfortable for adults, but they are a doorway in to the Church for a lot of kids - they make it accessible to them in terms that they can understand, where they actually are - which is often not where we wish they would be.
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  #63  
Old Jul 19, '08, 7:22 pm
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

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Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas View Post
Franciscan Friars? Is this one of the Priests who has been giving you spiritual direction?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZu6FRSJ1w4
Do you know anything about Fr. Stan Fortuna? How he lives? How he prays? How dedicated he is following the Holy Rule of St. Francis? How he serves the poorest of the poor? How he worships?

As to who is my spiritual director, that is none of your concern. You're crossing a line that may never be crossed.

Friar Cesare is a Capuchin Franciscan, one of the branches of the Friars Minor and the same community whose permanent assignment it is to preach to the Holy Father and his household daily. This is Padre Pio's community, Cardinal Sean O'Malley's community, Archbishoop Charles Chaput's community.

This is a community that has given many gifts to the Church in many venues that have been unique and new, but have born great fruit.

If it were not for them we would not have:

the Poor Clares of Perfetual Adoration, the Franciscans of the Renewal, Missionary Servants of the Blessed Trinity, Franciscan Missioanries of the Eternal Word (EWTN friars), and Bl. John XXIII.

Nor would we have the tabernacle in the centre of the sanctuary, as it was they who first put it there in the 13th century, the live nativity, and the living stations of the cross.

Their mission is to preach using whatever means God places at their disposal and to start new endeavors in the Church.

They lead the Secular Franciscan Order which has one million members around the world.

Youtube is not a reliable source of information. I would never use it for any other purpose than for entertainment.

The two friars that you have pointed to on Youtube.com live very holy lives dedicated to the Gospel and to deep prayer and contemplation, not just to what you see on the Internet.

This tradition (Franciscan) has been around for 800 years serving the Church and praying for the Church in very unique and creative ways. They have successfully converted many souls to Christ and helped found many other religious communities to continue the same mission of contemplation and evangelization.

As to WYD, all I see is kids having some fun, not doing anything sinful, as others on this thread have said. Didn't you ever do anything silly when you were a kid? I did.

JR
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Last edited by JReducation; Jul 19, '08 at 7:41 pm.
  #64  
Old Jul 19, '08, 8:11 pm
Jeanette L Jeanette L is offline
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas View Post
Franciscan Friars? Is this one of the Priests who has been giving you spiritual direction?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZu6FRSJ1w4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas View Post
What do you think about this one? Is this another example of a new "treasure"? It is a 60 something heavy metal monk.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200807...s-d7f4ae7.html
Pax et Caritas = Peace and Charity...

So, Pax et Caritas;

How many kids out in today's culture, even out on the street, are you reaching for Christ and his Church? You could be doing a knockout job, (I can't tell, that's the thing about not knowing a person, just as you don't know anyone in those videos) but you will for certain not reach every one of them, God has chosen many to do this job using many methods.

The Holy Scriptures tell us that God is the potter, we are the clay. And, it's not up to me or you to tell him how to create the vessels, (which are each of us) or how to use each for his own purposes.

Here's the beauty of life, God sees what we don't see, which is the heart and a purpose for each individual, in spite of what those around think about them. Thanks be to God!

It's up to us to open up our hearts and our minds, let them be filled with charity through the Holy Spirit, so as to see people as God sees them - through eyes that have an eternal view.

I know it's hard to stop these criticisms and judgments once we get started, but honestly, we really need to cut it out.
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  #65  
Old Jul 19, '08, 8:46 pm
redrosetea redrosetea is offline
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

How unkind to judge someone because they like music, and play it

Solanus Casey might be our first American born saint. He used to take his violin into the church and sing and play Christmas carols to the Christ child on Christmas eve

It was sort of a standing joke among the Capuchins to try to get away from listening to him because he wasn't very good at it


I think some of this stuff sounds like someone is lacking charity toward their neighbor

I watched many events from WYD and was impressed with what I saw


A Baptist lady contacted EWTN and said if everyone loved Christ as much as the Catholics there would be no wars


By their fruits ye shall know them
  #66  
Old Jul 20, '08, 2:21 am
Navarricano Navarricano is offline
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

And it's official!

The Holy Father has announced that Madrid is going to be the site of the next World Youth Day in 2011! Yeh!!

Guess I'm going to have to work on my stage-diving skills ...
  #67  
Old Jul 20, '08, 3:02 am
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

**
It's Australia's and WYD's Mass, and more specifically the Archdiocese of Sydney's Mass, and the organisation of it, one would presume, is rightly left up to the Bishop(s) and priests of Sydney who have been delegated to it.**

Actually, it's always the Church's Mass.
  #68  
Old Jul 20, '08, 3:04 am
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

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**
It's Australia's and WYD's Mass, and more specifically the Archdiocese of Sydney's Mass, and the organisation of it, one would presume, is rightly left up to the Bishop(s) and priests of Sydney who have been delegated to it.**

Actually, it's always the Church's Mass.
True - given her by Christ. Goes (to me) without saying.
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  #69  
Old Jul 20, '08, 4:59 am
Christophorus72 Christophorus72 is offline
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

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Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
On the basis of that short clip I absolutely can't judge, and neither can you.
I've got to admit, when I first saw the Friar Cesare Bonizzi video, it made my skin crawl because I used to be one of those "metal heads". I remember that time of my life and the things I was into that I definitely should not have been. I'm not sure what Friar Cesare Bonizzi is saying in the video, so I'm not going to pass judgement on him.

I do believe God gave each of us unique talents and abilities to spread the Word. I also know there are many wandering souls in the world that are searching for God and sometimes, people like myself who are so lost, needed something to happen, or a person to come along to steer us back on the right course. I use Proverbs 3:5-6 a lot when I think about life.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

Last edited by Christophorus72; Jul 20, '08 at 5:15 am.
  #70  
Old Jul 20, '08, 5:22 am
Pax et Caritas Pax et Caritas is offline
 
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

Consider in your own mind a dance from about 150 years ago. I'm sure all would agree that it would have been tame to say the least compared to the stage diving and rocking out from World Youth Day. There wasn't rock music back then, or even Jazz: The music was classical, and the dance was much more dignified.

Now, with that in mind, here's what the Cure of Ars had to say about dances 150 years ago:

Quote:
Cure of Ars: There is always the person who says to me: "What harm can there be in enjoying oneself for awhile? I do no wrong to anyone; I do not want to be religious or to become a religious! If I do not go to dances, I will be living in the world like someone dead!"

My good friend, you are wrong. Either you will be religious or you will be damned. What is a religious person? This is nothing other than a person who fulfills his duties as a Christian. You say that I shall achieve nothing by talking to you about dances and that you will indulge neither more nor less in them. You are wrong again. In ignoring or despising the instructions of your pastor, you draw down upon yourself fresh chastisements from God, and I, on my side, will achieve quite a lot by fulfilling my duties. At the hour of my death, God will ask me not if you have fulfilled your duties but if I have taught you what you must do in order to fulfill them. You say, too, that I shall never break down your resistance to the point of making you believe that there is harm in amusing yourself for a little while in dancing? You do not wish to believe that there is any harm in it? Well, that is your affair. As far as I am concerned, it is sufficient for me to tell you in such a way as will insure that doing this I am doing all that I should do. That should not irritate you: your pastor is doing his duty. ... what love for God can be felt by anyone who is thinking and breathing nothing but the love of pleasures and creatures? You will admit that it is impossible to please God and the world. That can never be.

These young people who frequent the dances, do they have the respect and the submission to their parents' wishes which they should have? No, they certainly do not; they cause them utmost worry and distress between the way they disregard their parents' wishes and the way they put their money to bad use, while sometimes even taunting them with their old-fashioned outlook and ways. What sorrow should not such parents feel, that is, if their faith is not yet extinct, at seeing their children given over to such pleasures or, to speak more plainly, to such licentious ways? These children are no longer Heaven-bent, but are fattening for Hell. Let us suppose that the parents have not yet lost the Faith. . . . Alas! I dare not go any further! . . . What blind parents! . . . What lost children! . . .

Is there any place, any time, any occasion wherein so many sins of impurity are committed at the dancehalls and their sequels? Is it not in these gatherings that people are most violently prompted against the holy virtue of purity? Where else but there are the senses so strongly urged towards pleasurable excitement? If we go a little more closely into this, should we not almost die of horror at the sight of so many crimes which are committed? Is it not at these gatherings that the Devil so furiously kindles the fire of impurity in the hearts of the young people in order to annihilate in them the grace of Baptism? Is it not there that Hell enslaves as many souls as it wishes? If, in spite of the absence of occasions and the aids of prayer, a Christian has so much difficulty in preserving purity of heart, how could he possibly preserve that virtue in the midst of so many sources which are capable of breaking it down?
"Look," says St. John Chrysostom, "at this worldly and flighty young woman, or rather at this flaming brand of diabolical fire who by her beauty and her flamboyant attire lights in the heart of that young man the fire of concupiscence. Do you not see them, one as much as the other, seeking to charm one another by their airs and graces and all sorts of tricks and wiles? Count up, unfortunate sinner, if you can, the number of your bad thoughts, of your evil desires and your sinful actions. Is it not there that you heard those airs that please the ears, that inflame and burn hearts and make of these assemblies furnaces of shamelessness?"

Is it not there, my dear brethren, that the boys and the girls drink at the fountain of crime, which very soon, like a torrent or a river bursting its banks, will inundate, ruin, and poison all its surroundings? Go on, shameless fathers and mothers, go on into Hell, where the fury of God awaits you, you and all the good actions you have done in letting your children run such risks. Go on, they will not be long in joining you, for you have outlined the road plainly for them. Go and count the number of years that your boys and girls have lost, go before your Judge to give an account of your lives, and you will see that your pastor had reason to forbid these kinds of diabolical pleasures! . . .

Ah, you say, you are making more of it than there really is!

I say too much about it? Very well, then. Listen. Did the Holy Fathers of the Church say too much about it? St. Ephraim tells us that dancing is the perdition of girls and women, the blinding of men, the grief of angels, and the joy of the devils. Dear God, can anyone really have their eyes bewitched to such an extent that they will still want to believe that there is no harm in it, while all the time it is the rope by which the Devil pulls the most souls into Hell? . . . Go on, poor parents, blind and lost, go on and scorn what your pastor is telling you! Go on! Continue the way you are going! Listen to everything and profit nothing by it! ...

St. Augustine tells us that those who go to dances truly renounce Jesus Christ in order to give themselves to the Devil. What a horrible thing that is! To drive out Jesus Christ after having received Him in your hearts! "Today," says St. Ephraim, "they unite themselves to Jesus Christ and tomorrow to the Devil."

The Council of Aix-la-Chapelle forbids dancing, even at weddings. And St. Charles Borromeo, the Archbishop of Milan, says that three years of penance were given to someone who had danced and that if he went back to it, he was threatened with excommunication. If there were no harm in it, then were the Holy Fathers and the Church mistaken? But who tells you that there is no harm in it? It can only be a libertine, or a flighty and worldly girl, who are trying to smother their remorse of conscience as best they can. Well, there are priests, you say, who do not speak about it in confession or who, without permitting it, do not refuse absolution for it. Ah! I do not know whether there are priests who are so blind, but I am sure that those who go looking for easygoing priests are going looking for a passport which will lead them to Hell. For my own part, if I went dancing, I should not want to receive absolution not having a real determination not to go back to dancing.

Listen to St. Augustine and you will see if dancing is a good action. He tells us that "dancing is the ruin of souls, a reversal of all decency, a shameful spectacle, a public profession of crime." St. Ephraim calls it "the ruin of good morals and the nourishment of vice." St. John Chrysostom: "A school of public unchastity." Tertullian: "The temple of Venus, the consistory of shamelessness, and the citadel of all the depravities." "Here is a girl who dances," says St. Ambrose, "but she is the daughter of an adulteress because a Christian woman would teach her daughter modesty, a proper sense of shame, and not dancing!"
What would the Cure of Ars say if he saw youth rocking out and stage diving?

It is surprising, but there are many who err by believing that, just because the world is currupt, the Church must become like the world in order to win the world. The Church must take on the spirit of the world in order to attract the world. Unfortunately, all that does is mix the spirit of the world with the Church, and thus make the Church like the world. I'll end with this quote:

St. Anthony of the desert: "Men will surrender to the spirit of the age. They will say that if they had lived in our day, faith would be simple and easy. But in their day, they will say, things are complex; the Church must be brought up to date and made meaningful to the day's problems. When the Church and the world are one, then those days [the end times] are at hand. Because our Divine Master put a barrier between His things and the things of this world."

We are living through what he predicted. What is most surprising to me is that people are completely unable to see the problem with it.

Last edited by Pax et Caritas; Jul 20, '08 at 5:34 am.
  #71  
Old Jul 20, '08, 5:36 am
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax et Caritas View Post
Consider in your own mind a dance from about 150 years ago. I'm sure all would agree that it would have been tame to say the least compared to the stage diving and rocking out from World Youth Day. There wasn't rock music back then, or even Jazz: The music was classical, and the dance was much more dignified.

Now, with that in mind, here's what the Cure of Ars had to say about dances 150 years ago:



What would the Cure of Ars say if he saw youth rocking out and stage diving?

It is surprising, but there are many who err by believing that, just because the world is currupt, the Church must become like the world in order to win the world. The Church must take on the spirit of the world in order to attract the world. Unfortunately, all that does is mix the spirit of the world with the Church, and thus make the Church like the world. I'll end with this quote:

St. Anthony of the desert: "Men will surrender to the spirit of the age. They will say that if they had lived in our day, faith would be simple and easy. But in their day, they will say, things are complex; the Church must be brought up to date and made meaningful to the day's problems. When the Church and the world are one, then those days [the end times] are at hand."

We are living through what he predicted. What is most surprising to me is that people are completely unable to see the problem with it.
Bear in mind the Cure of Ars, great saint though he is, is not infallible, and he's condemning all dancing by the sounds of it, even such as St Teresa of Avila or St Francis of Assisi used to do.

If they managed to achieve sanctity in spite of indulging in the pleasures of the dance, I think there's hope of the rest of those of us who enjoy the occasional turn on a dance floor. Mind you, I recall St Francis of Assisi being rather disobedient to his father too - sure proof of the wickedness of his ways, of course, even though his father totally opposed God's will for Francis
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  #72  
Old Jul 20, '08, 6:13 am
Pax et Caritas Pax et Caritas is offline
 
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

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Bear in mind the Cure of Ars, great saint though he is, is not infallible
Time to discredit the saints. But be sure to notice that he quoted many other saints, Doctors of the Church, and even a council as his authority.

Quote:
and he's condemning all dancing by the sounds of it, even such as St Teresa of Avila or St Francis of Assisi used to do.
OK, its' time to start producing some evidence for these statements. Please provide the evidence showing that St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis of Assisi used to attend dances.

I'm not looking to a quote that says that once danced. Becoming joyful and dancing one time in your parents living room is a different thing from going to a mixed dance, like at World Youth Day.

Quote:
If they managed to achieve sanctity in spite of indulging in the pleasures of the dance,
Again, let's see the evidence that they indulged in this pleasure.

Quote:
I think there's hope of the rest of those of us who enjoy the occasional turn on a dance floor.
Just because we enjoy somthing doesn't mean it is good. I enjoy old rock music but I avoid it because I realize it is not good for my soul.

Quote:
Mind you, I recall St Francis of Assisi being rather disobedient to his father too - sure proof of the wickedness of his ways, of course, even though his father totally opposed God's will for Francis
Are you advocting disobedience? Or are you saying St. Francis was wrong in disobeying? If it is the later, let me defend St. Francis...

Obedience is a moral virtue. Unlike the theological virtues which are absolures, the moral virtues are a balance point between two extremes: excess and defect. The virtue of obedience can be violated in both ways: either by not obeying when we should, or in obeying when we should not.

If memory serves, St. Francis' father wante him to live a worldly life. Realizing that obedience on this point would endanger his soul, the Saint rightly refused. Likewise, if a person's Bishop commanded them to attend World Youth Day and take part in the rocking out and stage diving, they should refuse to do so since that would endager the virtues of modesty and purity.
  #73  
Old Jul 20, '08, 1:11 pm
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
I can imagine Terese of Liseux doing this if she were living today. She was young, she was excited about the missionary activity of the Church and she was an artist in her own right.

She introduced theatre into the cloisters of Carmel. Terese wrote a play about Joan of Arc and had the nuns take off their habits and dawn midieval costumes to put on the play. This was something that was never done in Carmel.

She certainly had a strong inclination toward using the stage as a means of teaching the faith in a manner that was fun and respectful of the saints and the Lord.

JR
JR, thank you for posting this.

My older daughter was received into the Church this last spring. She was raised in our evangelical Protestant home, and graduated from Calvin College, so it's quite a miracle that she is now Catholic, isn't it?

She is a professional stage manager, and since toddlerhood, has always had a passion for theater. In fact, when she about 4, she announced that she wanted to become a missionary dancer when she grew up.

Well, she didn't become a missionary dancer, but she did become a theater professional.

What's interesting is that her special saint is The Little Flower. (She also likes Teresa of Avila and Edith Stein.)

Your post makes me wonder if Teresa of Lisieux has been interceding for my theatrical daughter for a long time, perhaps all of her life.

My thanks to The Little Flower for her prayers for my daughter and all the other people in the entertainment industry.

And I wonder if she and John Paul II are producing any good shows up in heaven?!
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  #74  
Old Jul 20, '08, 1:37 pm
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

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JR, thank you for posting this.

My older daughter was received into the Church this last spring. She was raised in our evangelical Protestant home, and graduated from Calvin College, so it's quite a miracle that she is now Catholic, isn't it?

She is a professional stage manager, and since toddlerhood, has always had a passion for theater. In fact, when she about 4, she announced that she wanted to become a missionary dancer when she grew up.

Well, she didn't become a missionary dancer, but she did become a theater professional.

What's interesting is that her special saint is The Little Flower. (She also likes Teresa of Avila and Edith Stein.)

Your post makes me wonder if Teresa of Lisieux has been interceding for my theatrical daughter for a long time, perhaps all of her life.

My thanks to The Little Flower for her prayers for my daughter and all the other people in the entertainment industry.

And I wonder if she and John Paul II are producing any good shows up in heaven?!
Add to your list Francis of Assisi. The Franciscans were the first religious community to introduce the choreographed version of the Nativity and the Stations of the Cross into the Church, written by St. Francis. Unfotunately, the orignal script has been lost, but the tradition lives on as we saw at World Youth Day. He also introduced the Laudas into mass. They had nothing to do with Lauds from the Liturgy of the Hours. They were hymns in Italian played on a mandolin, which are sill used today and which he wrote.

The two most famous ones are All Creatures of our God and King and Make Me an Instrument of Your Peace. These were written to be sung in Italian with a mandolin. They have been rewritten to be sung in many languages with many instruments.

Your daughter is in the company of many holy men and women who loved the arts and used them to worship God, in liturgy and outside of liturgy.

Fraternally,

JR
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How does one become a "Mirror of Perfection?"
  #75  
Old Jul 20, '08, 5:06 pm
RUINATION_IPA RUINATION_IPA is offline
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Default Re: World Youth Day 2002: Catholicism or Corruption?

I would never allow any of my kids to attend WYD. Females stage diving and crowd surfing is neither becoming of a real woman nor modest. Having members of the opposite sex camping out together is not very prudent either. Neither are the common showers without individual curtains as noted recently in the news.

My major problem is not kids having fun but how they are going about this. Compare St. Don Bosco's method of having fun and reaching out to the kids compared to WYD and LifeTeen. The two methods are completely at odds - one lives and breathes with the Spirit of Faith the other; the spirit of the world.

The first time I saw the youtube video of the 'aboriginal rappers' at WYD with the scantily clad woman doing pelvic gyration moves to some rap I thought to myself, 'Instead of wasting thousands of dollars to go to Sydney I could stay at home, invite some friends over and pop in a Dr. Dre CD and I'm sure someone would bring over one of their girl friends who could put on her bikini top and start doing some sensual dancing for us.'

This is nonsense!
 

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