Should there be actions taken to improve or even control immodest dress at mass?

[westboro]

I don't know if it is just a local problem at my own church but I must say that attending church on Sundays in particular is like a day at the beach! I cannot believe how immodestly so many people dress...especially teenagers. It not only takes away the 'main' purpose of being there, which is to worship God, but causes sinful thoughts and desires at the one place that should be a 'safe haven' from the problem that is prevalent everywhere else. My question is "Should our pastors assert themselves aggressively to stop this practice?" I have heard priests say "well at least they are going to mass!" I heard others say that when they were teenagers, the 'view' was what they liked about going to mass on Sundays. It is all so frustrating. These priests who are supposed to be 'shepherding' their people seem to be 'looking' the other way. Recently, while visiting the Holy Land, I was told that I could not wear 'shorts above the knee' to enter ANY of the shrines. I thought it was wonderful! This was told to me by a Franciscan priest who, like all Franciscans, where a long brown tunic every day whether it is 'too hot' or not! They truly lead by example! No one is allowed entry into the Vatican who is dressed immodestly. This is 'enforced' by security guards. My pastor told me that was because it is a shrine. What is the difference? Isn't Jesus just as present in the Tabernacle of our local church as He is in shrines? It seems to me the 'least' they should do is to post signs at the entrance of the church and/or print guidelines in the bulletin. What do YOU Think???

[Michael96]

I think there are two sides to this one:

1) I agree that standard of dress is important (I was surprised when I converted to Catholicism how casually people dressed compared to the Methodist Church I had come from). I would like to see more modest dress.

2) But it really is better that somone comes to church with shorts (or whatever) than they don't come at all.

And my view tends to vacillate between those two positions. I certainly don't think we need rules or a dress-police operating, but some timely guidance (as the weather gets hot, or "if" the weather gets hot here in the UK) from the priest woudn't go astray.

[Tietjen]

Originally Posted by Michael96

I think there are two sides to this one:

1) I agree that standard of dress is important (I was surprised when I converted to Catholicism how casually people dressed compared to the Methodist Church I had come from). I would like to see more modest dress.

2) But it really is better that somone comes to church with shorts (or whatever) than they don't come at all.

Your 2nd point suggests that it's an either/or situation. It is not. People can come properly dressed. Some CHOOSE not to. I'm not suggesting that every male be in a suit and every female a long dress w/ a veil. I'm suggesting that perhaps we could do without flip-flops, shorts and the like.

[Michael96]

I think just occaisionally the two do fight against each other Tietjen.

For example if I had a tenager going through an "awkward" phase who refused to go to mass unless they could wear shorts that I thought were a little too tight then I'd let them wear shorts (thank God, my teenagers have never been a problem, so I haven't had to deal with this personally).

I think at the end of the day we can only lead by example, dress well oursleves and have some control over our children (obviously we steasily let go of direct control as they mature).

[Tietjen]

Originally Posted by Michael96

I think just occaisionally the two do fight against each other Tietjen.

For example if I had a tenager going through an "awkward" phase who refused to go to mass unless they could wear shorts that I thought were a little too tight then I'd let them wear shorts (thank God, my teenagers have never been a problem, so I haven't had to deal with this personally).

They only fight against each other if the parent hasn't set the boundaries at a young age. Given your example, I would not let the teen wear the tight shorts regardless of her feeling "awkward" without them. I too thank God that my Children never went through anything like this. However, I also recognize that a large reason why they never did is because they learned what the boundaries were long before they became teens. Thus, there was never an issue.

Originally Posted by Michael96

I think at the end of the day we can only lead by example, dress well oursleves and have some control over our children (obviously we steasily let go of direct control as they mature).

I think that at the end of the day we lead by example as well as by direction. If a child doesn't come out of his/her room wearing appropriate attire for Mass, they should be sent back to their room to try again. But again... if these boundaries are set when they are young, the odds are that this will be a non-issue.

[Michael96]

Originally Posted by Tietjen

I too thank God that my Children never went through anything like this. However, I also recognize that a large reason why they never did is because they learned what the boundaries were long before they became teens. Thus, there was never an issue.

Good parenting is indeed important. However, I do think we should be a little wary of assuming our well behaved children are down simply to our own parenting skills. It is likely we have both been a little fortunate as well. Hubris before nemesis.

[Schluns]

Coming from a baptist background I was shocked over the cloths that people wear to Mass.

Imagine: Here I am considering joining the One True Church in the very heart of Indiana and the ENTIRE congregation is dressed as to revere the Colts! A sea of blue! I almost turned around and walked out, except the priest opened with: (and I paraphrase) I hope you came here today to show the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost the same reverence that you are showing the Colts! However, this admonishment must have been the only discussion regarding dress as I was amazed at the few times that I went to this parish what people considered proper dress and this was not a poor parish.

I now attend a more Orthodox parish downtown that is poorer, and for the most part people dress modestly, the clothes may not be the cleanest, the suites may be raggedy, but rarely do you see short shorts or clevage and if you do...Monsignor and Father will be including that in next weeks homily, and neither will hesitate to pull the offender over after Mass and have a little talky with this person.

[Newbie2]

If there is to be a "dress code", what would it be?

[Lee M]

Originally Posted by Schluns

Coming from a baptist background I was shocked over the cloths that people wear to Mass.

Imagine: Here I am considering joining the One True Church in the very heart of Indiana and the ENTIRE congregation is dressed as to revere the Colts! A sea of blue! I almost turned around and walked out, except the priest opened with: (and I paraphrase) I hope you came here today to show the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost the same reverence that you are showing the Colts! However, this admonishment must have been the only discussion regarding dress as I was amazed at the few times that I went to this parish what people considered proper dress and this was not a poor parish.

I now attend a more Orthodox parish downtown that is poorer, and for the most part people dress modestly, the clothes may not be the cleanest, the suites may be raggedy, but rarely do you see short shorts or clevage and if you do...Monsignor and Father will be including that in next weeks homily, and neither will hesitate to pull the offender over after Mass and have a little talky with this person.

I totally agree with you. It never amazes me that people can dress up for weddings (even the secular ones) and parties but they can't seem to find their Sunday's best to wear to church on Sunday. It shows where their priorities are.

[Lee M]

Originally Posted by Newbie2

If there is to be a "dress code", what would it be?

At the local Abbey, they have a sign up that says no shorts, low cut shirts, sleeveless shirts, etc. I can't remember the exact words, but it is something like that.

Our local public schools have a dress code. I've seen teens come to church that wouldn't pass the school dress code. It's pretty sad.

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Originally Posted by westboro

I don't know if it is just a local problem at my own church but I must say that attending church on Sundays in particular is like a day at the beach! I cannot believe how immodestly so many people dress...especially teenagers. It not only takes away the 'main' purpose of being there, which is to worship God, but causes sinful thoughts and desires at the one place that should be a 'safe haven' from the problem that is prevalent everywhere else. My question is "Should our pastors assert themselves aggressively to stop this practice?" I have heard priests say "well at least they are going to mass!" I heard others say that when they were teenagers, the 'view' was what they liked about going to mass on Sundays. It is all so frustrating. These priests who are supposed to be 'shepherding' their people seem to be 'looking' the other way. Recently, while visiting the Holy Land, I was told that I could not wear 'shorts above the knee' to enter ANY of the shrines. I thought it was wonderful! This was told to me by a Franciscan priest who, like all Franciscans, where a long brown tunic every day whether it is 'too hot' or not! They truly lead by example! No one is allowed entry into the Vatican who is dressed immodestly. This is 'enforced' by security guards. My pastor told me that was because it is a shrine. What is the difference? Isn't Jesus just as present in the Tabernacle of our local church as He is in shrines? It seems to me the 'least' they should do is to post signs at the entrance of the church and/or print guidelines in the bulletin. What do YOU Think???

I am just happy the teenagers are there. What is "immodest" is most often in the eye of the beholder.

[estesbob]

Our sense of what is modest should never preclude someone from attending mass. If you find their attire distracting I think the problem more yours than theirs. . If you think someone is dressed imodestly don't look at them

I have no problem with putting guidelines in the bulletin about what proper attire is or even posting a notice in the narthex. One should never, however, be denied access the Mass because of the way they dress

[Orogeny]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't recall any instances in the Gospels where Jesus required anyone to dress a certain way to be with him. I can't imagine Jesus standing at the door of the church and excluding people based on their dress, so I can't imagine myself or anyone else doing so either.

I have a problem with the way some people dress at Mass, but that is my problem.

Peace

Tim

[Tantum ergo]

And sometimes, what is immodest is just that. . .immodest.

The trouble is that many, if not most, people in today's culture--male and female, rich and poor, black and white, and everything in between. . .have become so conditioned to accept the 'anything goes' attitude (and to excuse it with, "Immodesty is in the eye of the beholder" and "I wouldn't wear that myself but who am I to 'judge' another", and "Well, God doesn't judge us by our clothes" and "At least they're there.")

Standards? We don't need no freaking standards! If it's out there, we can wear it. . .whenever we want, wherever we want. . .and God help anybody who suggests that what <I> choose to wear is immodest or inappropriate. How rude! Why should <I> submit to anybody's guidelines? Why can't <I> judge for myself? Don't I have better things to do like working for justice than to fret over what some poor teenager who is probably far more "Christian" than I am (since I am such a nasty Puritan, bigot, repressive and control freak, obviously) is wearing?

What gives anybody the right to 'judge another?' As Christians, aren't we supposed to just smile and rejoice when the wedding guests come to the banquet? I mean, nobody is going to throw anybody out for wearing something that isn't appropriate to the wedding banquet, right?

OOOPS. Uh, yes, actually, they are, aren't they? How pesky of Scripture to have Jesus tell us Himself that the man who did not have a wedding garment was going to be thrown into the darkness. How unChristian of Jesus!!!! Imagine! Surely he wasn't talking about things today, though. Oh no, surely not. Surely He, who gave us His Church and the Authority to "bind and loose" and to insist upon certain standards like being in a state of grace to receive communion. . .didn't mean to include in that norms for appropriate dress?

What do you mean, that until the last century, the majority of the people were dressed appropriately anyway? That it is only in the last century that there has been a huge 'divergence' in dress, and a widespread adaptation of immodest wear as appropriate? (Yes, there were always those who dressed immodestly in history. . but they never wore those clothes out into public and expected them to be accepted as 'proper attire'. Now, of course, not only is immodest wear accepted as 'fine', it's the people who wear, or who advocate, modest appropriate wear who are stigmatized and derided.)

The tryanny of the 'majority', the weakness of not standing up for one's faith because, "well, gee, who am I to judge?"

Well, gee, actually <you>, if you are a Catholic advocating modest and appropriate dress, in church especially but at all times and places too, are NOT JUDGING. It is the Church which has long promulgated the teaching of appropriate and respectful 'outward' attire (and inward as well). So it is not people 'judging' others: It is Christ's Church-and thus Christ Himself--who have given us, authoritatively, the judgment of what is and what is not modest and appropriate--and it is we, when we wear immodest clothes and FAIL TO TELL OTHERS when they do so too--who are failing our Church and our God.

Failing them by thinking (falsely) that it doesn't matter, or other things are 'more important' than adhering to standards. Failing them by letting 'the world' make the judgment of what is 'acceptable' even when it flies in the face of 2000 years of tradition and practice for Christians. . . and then trying to put the CHRISTIAN in the wrong as 'judgmental.'

It's diabolical and it is tragic how many Christians succumb to the false idea that we are 'judging' another when we note that their attire is inappropriate. . .as if 'immodesty is ONLY in the eye of the beholder.'

It is not. These falsehoods only promulgate a deeper and more thorough immodesty and a further weakening of Christian teaching.

[Lee M]

Originally Posted by Orogeny

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't recall any instances in the Gospels where Jesus required anyone to dress a certain way to be with him. I can't imagine Jesus standing at the door of the church and excluding people based on their dress, so I can't imagine myself or anyone else doing so either.

I have a problem with the way some people dress at Mass, but that is my problem.

Peace

Tim

No, but Apostle Paul did:

1 Timothy 2:9

Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,