Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Spirituality
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #121  
Old Aug 27, '08, 9:45 am
WH1988 WH1988 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Posts: 101
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: European Catholicism

Cinnete, I am glad that you are becoming more traditional, but you must understand that your arguments have three major flaws:

- Salazar was certainly not fascist, nor was his government fascist in any way. I'm not alone here: most independent historians refuse to classify Salazar's regime as fascist. It is considered a Right-wing Authoritarian Regime, with many Catholic influence.

Fascism was, interestingly enough, originated by a division on the Italian Communist Party. Mussolini was himself leader of the Italian Communist Party before creating the Facist Party.

Fascism is thus a strange mix of left-wing economic policies with nationalism. It is strongly based on the cult of the leader.

The Estado Novo was not like that. In fact, many believe the greatest inspiration to the Salazar's regime was the encyclical "Rerum Novarum", of Leo XIII.

Salazar was a leader of the Centrist Catholic Party, during the anti-clerical first republic, and he was, indeed, very devout.

His regime was based on the values of "God, Motherland, Family", which is still the inspiration for many of the Portuguese right-wing. He promoted family values and corporativism, as a mean to avoid clashes between workers and capitalists.

There were, of course, some points that can resemble fascism, like the Mocidade Portuguesa, ou the Legiao Portuguesa (paramilitary militias), but those were created precisely in order to please in some way the small group of portuguese fascists (lead by Rolao Preto), as they had no influence in anything else.

I fail to see how a regime that so clearly promotes Catholic values can be blamed for the poor state of Portuguese Catholicism. I would say that is true only in the sense that perhaps a country like Portugal needs to have an authoritarian government in order to defend Catholicism.

- You are clearly influenced by marxist thinking - dialectic materialism, which is incompatible with Catholicism. Please think on the expression "twenty-first century", and how you use it as an argument. The truth is that is an empty marxist argument. Thats like saying: "HOW CAN WE HAVE POVERTY ON TUESDAY? WE HAVE ALREADY PASSED MONDAY".

The twenty-first century is in no way better than other centuries, and there aren't any forbidden thoughts, ideas or events for a due century - history tends to repeat itself, because men tend to repeat their errors. Freedom is always new, as said Pope Benedict in Spe Salvi.

Thus, it is extremely wrong to say that we need a "twenty-first century" ruralization, or that "we cannot accept poverty in the twenty-first century". We are not in New Jerusalem yet. Why in the hell should poverty end in the twenty first century? Using centuries as trademarks of progress, is a very marxist fashion, always tending to a kind of perfect and indefinite social future. God knows what kind of ruralization will be typical in this century.

- That is not my definition of ecumenism. That's THE definition of ecumenism, if you reject it, you are rejecting the Church's doctrine.
__________________
Cor Iesu, usque ad mortem oboediens factum, miserere nobis.

A Economia da Alma - A Blog dedicated to the Apologetics of the True Orthodox Catholic Faith and to the Holy Mother Church - in Portuguese!
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old Aug 27, '08, 10:14 am
Kaninchen's Avatar
Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2006
Posts: 7,630
Religion: Jewish (Jewess)
Default Re: European Catholicism

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH1988 View Post
Fascism was, interestingly enough, originated by a division on the Italian Communist Party. Mussolini was himself leader of the Italian Communist Party before creating the Facist Party.
No he wasn't. The Fasci Italiani di Combattimento was formed by Mussolini in March 1919, the Partito Comunista Italiano wasn't formed until January 1921. He'd never been a leader, he was a journalist for the socialist paper Avanti! until he set up his own militarist/irredentist paper Il Popolo d'Italia in 1914.

Quote:
Fascism is thus a strange mix of left-wing economic policies with nationalism. It is strongly based on the cult of the leader.
This isn't the thread for it but I'd really like to hear about Fascism's 'left-wing economic policies'.
__________________

Il ruggito della coniglia!



A little bit of these in all of us?
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old Aug 27, '08, 11:54 am
DAPDN DAPDN is offline
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 119
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: European Catholicism

Well, in a short reply, and having in mind the fact that this is not the right subject for this thread, I'm going to give you some answers about those "left-wing leaned economic policies" which WH1988 talked about.

When we refer to that term, in what concerns to the fascist/national-socialist regimes' economic policy, we want to say that there were a lot of typical socialist/left-wing economic leanings in the economic constitution of those regimes. One may give examples like:

- Central planning; Nazi Germany had the famous "Office for the 4-year plans", which was held by Göring - pretty much like the USSR had their 5-year plans, at the time of Stalin;

- The rejection of basic economic freedoms like freedom of establishment and freedom of competition, thus rejecting the model of a free market economy - the fact is that private property and private economic initiative had to be approved by the central governmental authorities, to see if the "national" or "colective" interest was being attended by that particular business (this is actually a remark of the fascist/national-socialist regimes - the individual is nothing, and the individual interests are denied, only the colective interest matters);

- And, finally, to end with this example, protectionism; in some kind of mercantilistic way, fascist and national-socialist regimes tend to insanely make their countries totally independent from the rest of the world, by trying to produce everything their population needs, and thereby, drastically reducing their imports, while improving their exports. Of course, we know better that nobody but the individual knows what needs are his needs, and what goods satisfies him the most. But the fascist/national-socialist economic constitutions tended to deliberately ignore that, once again, because of the philosophy of the regime - the individual is nothing. All that matters is the colectivity.

So, here you go. Hope this explanation will produce good fruits.
__________________
"Et ego, si exaltátus fúero a terra, omnes traham ad meípsum." - Jo XII, 32

A Economia da Alma - A Blog dedicated to the Apologetics of the True Orthodox Catholic Faith and to the Holy Mother Church - in Portuguese!
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old Aug 27, '08, 12:35 pm
Kaninchen's Avatar
Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2006
Posts: 7,630
Religion: Jewish (Jewess)
Default Re: European Catholicism

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAPDN View Post
- Central planning; Nazi Germany had the famous "Office for the 4-year plans", which was held by Göring - pretty much like the USSR had their 5-year plans, at the time of Stalin;
With the huge difference that there was not state ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange. It was mainly a 'public works' program and 'protection' program and a rearmament program, very many capitalist economies of the time, (including the USA) had 'public works' and 'protection' programs - many were soon to have rearmament programs.

Quote:
The rejection of basic economic freedoms like freedom of establishment and freedom of competition, thus rejecting the model of a free market economy - the fact is that private property and private economic initiative had to be approved by the central governmental authorities, to see if the "national" or "colective" interest was being attended by that particular business (this is actually a remark of the fascist/national-socialist regimes - the individual is nothing, and the individual interests are denied, only the colective interest matters);
The NSDAP* was a party supported by small business and paid for by big business - the latter did very well out of it (until the end of course). The problem I have with your analysis is that it defines as 'left-wing' anything that isn't laissez-faire - thus very long periods, globally, of capitalist history would have to be defined as 'left-wing' which renders it a pretty meaningless term.

* The growth of the Party was accompanied by the electoral collapse of the right wing parties, not the left wing parties (or the Catholic Zentrum and BVP, for that matter, whose vote stood up pretty well).

Quote:
And, finally, to end with this example, protectionism; in some kind of mercantilistic way, fascist and national-socialist regimes tend to insanely make their countries totally independent from the rest of the world, by trying to produce everything their population needs, and thereby, drastically reducing their imports, while improving their exports. Of course, we know better that nobody but the individual knows what needs are his needs, and what goods satisfies him the most. But the fascist/national-socialist economic constitutions tended to deliberately ignore that, once again, because of the philosophy of the regime - the individual is nothing. All that matters is the colectivity.
Well, autarky was a necessary concomitant to the need for a period of war (ersatz rubber, fuel etc) where Germany (as in the First World War) could be cut off from raw materials and food rather easily. This was a capitalist economy preparing for war, not 'socialism in one country'.

The ultimate aim of the regime was really 'back to the future' - small farms, artisan production, small business - the contradiction was that, to achieve it, required bigger and bigger concentrations of production.

Quote:
So, here you go. Hope this explanation will produce good fruits.
Not really, as I said above, if the Reich was 'left-wing' the term is rendered meaningless.
__________________

Il ruggito della coniglia!



A little bit of these in all of us?
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old Aug 27, '08, 12:45 pm
WH1988 WH1988 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Posts: 101
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: European Catholicism

Please notice: nobody said the third reich or fascist Italy were left-wing, but that they had some important (very important) left-wing economic policies. It is obvious that you never met a fascist, they are deeply anti-capitalist, because they, as DAPDN said, share an important principle with communism: the primacy of the state over the individual, even if on a slightly lower degree. I would, however, classify those aspects of fascism as clearly left-wing in economical term.

That doesn't mean, however, that fascism is a left-wing ideology - it's rather an interesting hybrid political phenomenon.
__________________
Cor Iesu, usque ad mortem oboediens factum, miserere nobis.

A Economia da Alma - A Blog dedicated to the Apologetics of the True Orthodox Catholic Faith and to the Holy Mother Church - in Portuguese!
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old Aug 27, '08, 1:02 pm
bpcatholic bpcatholic is offline
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: July 6, 2007
Posts: 641
Religion: Katholisch
Default Re: European Catholicism

Quote:
Originally Posted by palmas85 View Post
I recently posted that it appears that in many once staunchly Catholic European countries, Catholicism has been pretty much abandoned to a great degree. I was called on this statement so, I decided to post some stats gleaned from various polls taken. Let us remember that in Polls of this sort the number that say they attend Mass is usually about twice that actually do. Recent studies in the US and Canada saw that if 40% said they attended Mass the true figure was closer to 20-25% with similar results coming out of Western Europe. With that in mind lets look at a few figures

Malta 84% The shining star
Ireland 71%, slipping badly, the latest polls show it to be around 50% I posted the higher figure as it compares with the same time frame as the other estimates
Poland 60% the only country which has showed an increase since the 80's
Italy 48% Really scary when you think about it
Spain 30% even scarier
Austria 28%
Luxemburg and Germany tied with 27%
Belgium 26%
Switzerland 23%
The Netherlands 19%
France 12%

When you factor in the half that say they attend when they don't, the figures are truly horrific and I feel are the reason that the Holy Father has made the re-vitalization of Catholicism in Europe a top priority of his pontificate.

These figures are from the World values Survey with the latest results from 2000.
Are those the percentages of the entire population or just the Catholic population. According to the German Catholic Conference of Catholic Bishops website it says that 12% of Catholics, not of the German population, but ONLY Catholics attend Mass on a regular basis.
__________________
I my Papa Francesco!

"Certainly we disagree with the Communist Party, as we disagree with other political parties who are trying to maintain the American way of life." Dorothy Day
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old Aug 27, '08, 1:09 pm
DAPDN DAPDN is offline
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 119
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: European Catholicism

There were a lot of major state-owned corporations, Kaninchen, and mostly became state-owned by processes which are very typical on left-wing leaned economies - for example, nationalizations. They used this process a lot, especially to deal with the companies that the previous jewish owners left behind. After this, sometimes they atributed (note that they didn't sell...) the ownership of those enterprises directly to german entrepeneurs who were friends of the party - a clear example of this process was Oskar Schindler's Enamel Factory in "Schindler's List" - and sometimes they just kept them running, owned and managed by the State.

Of course that what you said makes sense - in fact, public investment was widely alocated to business sectors like war industries, and so on; but I honestly don't believe that it would have been different if there was not a war going on. The National-Socialist/Fascist ideology is deeply anti-capitalist and completely against the free-market doctrine. I think they would keep their state-ownership of some of the means of production, in any way. And the argument of the war going on may not be plausible. In fact, Nazi Germany's economy only started to change to a War Economy after the failure of 1941's attack on Moscow, on the Eastern Front, and even then, only by the end of 1942 the german people started to feel the effects of the war on their lifes.

So if the Nazis didn't change anything concerning their economic policy during a period of 3 years of war in which their overall economy was not modeled after a War Economy, what makes you think that, even if there was peace instead of war, they would have applied different property and means of production ownership patterns?

Well, but once again, I make an appeal that we may stick to the thread's matter being discussed, not a paralel one, like this.
__________________
"Et ego, si exaltátus fúero a terra, omnes traham ad meípsum." - Jo XII, 32

A Economia da Alma - A Blog dedicated to the Apologetics of the True Orthodox Catholic Faith and to the Holy Mother Church - in Portuguese!
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old Aug 27, '08, 2:42 pm
Kaninchen's Avatar
Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2006
Posts: 7,630
Religion: Jewish (Jewess)
Default Re: European Catholicism

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAPDN View Post
Well, but once again, I make an appeal that we may stick to the thread's matter being discussed, not a paralel one, like this.
Obviously we disagree absolutely about everything on the topic of the 'left wing' nature of Fascism and Nazism but you're right, we should stop.

I'm sure we'll have opportunities to argue about it at another time.
__________________

Il ruggito della coniglia!



A little bit of these in all of us?
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old Aug 27, '08, 2:53 pm
DAPDN DAPDN is offline
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 119
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: European Catholicism

Yes, of course. Feel free to continue this debate by all means, but I hope that you know that what I am defending is supported by a lot of political scientists, economic theorists and experts and also by some historians, as well, apart from the clearly dominant dialetic-materialist (one might as well say "marxist") majority in nowadays' historians.
__________________
"Et ego, si exaltátus fúero a terra, omnes traham ad meípsum." - Jo XII, 32

A Economia da Alma - A Blog dedicated to the Apologetics of the True Orthodox Catholic Faith and to the Holy Mother Church - in Portuguese!
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old Aug 27, '08, 3:02 pm
Kaninchen's Avatar
Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2006
Posts: 7,630
Religion: Jewish (Jewess)
Default Re: European Catholicism

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAPDN View Post
Yes, of course. Feel free to continue this debate by all means, but I hope that you know that what I am defending is supported by a lot of political scientists, economic theorists and experts and also by some historians, as well, apart from the clearly dominant dialetic-materialist (one might as well say "marxist") majority in nowadays' historians.
You know, I really wonder at the reason for this post - am I to tremble or something? Even more, I wonder why you assume that somebody who disagrees with you on this subject is somehow in thrall to Marxists?

When I was young I was a politically active anti-socialist in a world where there were still real communists around - now, they were people who were really skilled at bluster.
__________________

Il ruggito della coniglia!



A little bit of these in all of us?
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old Aug 27, '08, 3:12 pm
DAPDN DAPDN is offline
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 119
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: European Catholicism

Of course you are not to tremble, I just wanted to provide you of some information concerning the position which I stand for; some academic background. Just that. Where did you get that silly idea from?

And I also do not understand why you took for personal my words against the dominant dialetic-materialist majority in the historians. Well, if you are an historian, I might understand your interpretation, but have in mind that I didn't know about that, nor did I have any means of knowing that.

Now, I sincerely hope that you don't get mad at me because of these silly misunderstandings. And once again, I restate that you can feel free to continue this debate by all means, except this thread, of course.
__________________
"Et ego, si exaltátus fúero a terra, omnes traham ad meípsum." - Jo XII, 32

A Economia da Alma - A Blog dedicated to the Apologetics of the True Orthodox Catholic Faith and to the Holy Mother Church - in Portuguese!
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old Aug 27, '08, 3:20 pm
Kaninchen's Avatar
Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2006
Posts: 7,630
Religion: Jewish (Jewess)
Default Re: European Catholicism

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAPDN View Post
Of course you are not to tremble, I just wanted to provide you of some information concerning the position which I stand for; some academic background. Just that. Where did you get that silly idea from?
Well, on the one hand there was little me, in thrall to naughty, naughty Marxists; on the other there was you and all the great and the good in the world of experts. Silly me, I wondered whether you expected me to be intimidated.

Quote:
And I also do not understand why you took for personal my words against the dominant dialetic-materialist majority in the historians. Well, if you are an historian, I might understand your interpretation, but have in mind that I didn't know about that, nor did I have any means of knowing that.
One should be careful about making assumptions. I'm not a historian, on the other hand, being of a German/Italian Jewish background, the subject has always had more than a little interest for me.
__________________

Il ruggito della coniglia!



A little bit of these in all of us?
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old Aug 27, '08, 3:28 pm
DAPDN DAPDN is offline
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: March 31, 2008
Posts: 119
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: European Catholicism

Well, I'm sorry if I was, in any way, disrespectful towards you. Shouldn't have been, if I was so. But I still think you exagerated a bit in your interpretation of my words or intentions, which, as I have already said, were only made to show you that my opinion about the subject was not a personal pseudo-intelectual caprice, but an opinion which has a scholar support. Only that, nothing else. And I do respect your knowledge about the matter - you have already proved so, as I previously made clear in one of my posts.
__________________
"Et ego, si exaltátus fúero a terra, omnes traham ad meípsum." - Jo XII, 32

A Economia da Alma - A Blog dedicated to the Apologetics of the True Orthodox Catholic Faith and to the Holy Mother Church - in Portuguese!
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old Aug 27, '08, 3:35 pm
Gottle of Geer Gottle of Geer is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 12, 2004
Posts: 11,638
Default Re: European Catholicism

Quote:
Originally Posted by palmas85 View Post
I don't don't that for a second given what the Church of England is up to these days and with England having large numbers of eastern Europeans moving in who still actually have a Catholic belief system, .but that is hardly the point. When does non participation equal abandonment? A fallen away Catholic is certainly still Catholic unless he renounces, but not a practicing one, and cannot really be counted as one.
## The Church is more merciful than some of its members - it does not count lapsed Catholics as not Catholics; it includes them as Catholics.

There is no virtue in being, as it were, "more-Catholic-than-thou"

As for the C of E, they are Christians: they have valid Baptism, & the Popes seem to think they count as Christians.
Quote:
Under that equation the millions upon millions of Central Americans and Mexicans who have abandoned the Church in favor of evangelical Christian sects or cults are still Catholics. So in that case how long does one need to be non practicing before it equals equal abandonment?
## Lack of practice does not make a former Christian - Catholic or other. What does so, is not time, but rejection of whatever form of Christianity one used to adhere to. Is an atheist of 10 years' standing who was formerly Catholic more Catholic than a Catholic who is lapsed for 15, but does everything Catholic apart from frequenting the Sacraments ? Time is not what is decisive.
Quote:
One year, ten years 30? If I am a member of a Church with 1,000 registered members and only 50 show up for Mass does that Church truly have 1,000 members?

I don't think so..
## It can have 1,000 members in more than one way - turning up at Mass is a very poor index of whether or not one is Catholic.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old Aug 27, '08, 4:04 pm
KingAlfred KingAlfred is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2008
Posts: 1,724
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: European Catholicism

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH1988 View Post
Cinnete, I am glad that you are becoming more traditional, but you must understand that your arguments have three major flaws:

- Salazar was certainly not fascist, nor was his government fascist in any way. I'm not alone here: most independent historians refuse to classify Salazar's regime as fascist. It is considered a Right-wing Authoritarian Regime, with many Catholic influence.

Fascism was, interestingly enough, originated by a division on the Italian Communist Party. Mussolini was himself leader of the Italian Communist Party before creating the Facist Party.

Fascism is thus a strange mix of left-wing economic policies with nationalism. It is strongly based on the cult of the leader.

The Estado Novo was not like that. In fact, many believe the greatest inspiration to the Salazar's regime was the encyclical "Rerum Novarum", of Leo XIII.

Salazar was a leader of the Centrist Catholic Party, during the anti-clerical first republic, and he was, indeed, very devout.

His regime was based on the values of "God, Motherland, Family", which is still the inspiration for many of the Portuguese right-wing. He promoted family values and corporativism, as a mean to avoid clashes between workers and capitalists.

There were, of course, some points that can resemble fascism, like the Mocidade Portuguesa, ou the Legiao Portuguesa (paramilitary militias), but those were created precisely in order to please in some way the small group of portuguese fascists (lead by Rolao Preto), as they had no influence in anything else.

I fail to see how a regime that so clearly promotes Catholic values can be blamed for the poor state of Portuguese Catholicism. I would say that is true only in the sense that perhaps a country like Portugal needs to have an authoritarian government in order to defend Catholicism.

- You are clearly influenced by marxist thinking - dialectic materialism, which is incompatible with Catholicism. Please think on the expression "twenty-first century", and how you use it as an argument. The truth is that is an empty marxist argument. Thats like saying: "HOW CAN WE HAVE POVERTY ON TUESDAY? WE HAVE ALREADY PASSED MONDAY".

The twenty-first century is in no way better than other centuries, and there aren't any forbidden thoughts, ideas or events for a due century - history tends to repeat itself, because men tend to repeat their errors. Freedom is always new, as said Pope Benedict in Spe Salvi.

Thus, it is extremely wrong to say that we need a "twenty-first century" ruralization, or that "we cannot accept poverty in the twenty-first century". We are not in New Jerusalem yet. Why in the hell should poverty end in the twenty first century? Using centuries as trademarks of progress, is a very marxist fashion, always tending to a kind of perfect and indefinite social future. God knows what kind of ruralization will be typical in this century.

- That is not my definition of ecumenism. That's THE definition of ecumenism, if you reject it, you are rejecting the Church's doctrine.
Viva la Falange! (just play'n)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Spirituality

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is Catholicism A Democracy? JReducation Traditional Catholicism 561 Mar 29, '08 10:21 pm
Is Catholicism hellenized? mlcampbell Apologetics 35 Sep 28, '06 6:41 am



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8255Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: janiejnb
5018CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4345Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: lsbar
4029OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: B79
3833SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3568Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3226Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3203Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3122Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3048For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: tammany



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:28 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.