Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Dec 20, '08, 9:18 am
Bill Pick Bill Pick is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: November 7, 2008
Posts: 3,559
Religion: CATHLOIC
Default Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Jesus drank wine. That said, let's look at the historical circumstances. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and Passover (the time of the Last Supper) is in the spring. Without refrigeration, grapes (and grape juice) do not keep very well. Within a few days after the harvest, grapes begin to ferment and/or rot. The only methods of preservation available to the 1st century citizen were to extract the juice and let it ferment under somewhat controlled conditions (this is called wine making) or to dry the grapes which resulted in raisins. At the Last Supper Jesus said "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine" (Matthew 26:29, KJV). In those days they made wine from a number of different fruits but the wine of the grape, the "fruit of the vine," was alone used at Passover. Since this was spring, and the Passover liturgy called for all participants to drink four cups of wine, grape juice preserved by fermentation (wine) was most certainly used or at least one of the Gospel writers would have remarked about the departure from the natural; as they did so often about all His other miracles. The prescriptions for celebrating the Passover called for the cups of wine to be diluted with water. This was necessary because the fermentation process made it rather strong and also because the vessels they kept the wine in were somewhat porous and the wine tended to become thick with age as moisture escaped. This is the historical background behind why the priest adds a drop of water to the chalice during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Wine not well protected from the air while it was stored became sour wine (vinegar).
  #2  
Old Dec 20, '08, 9:52 am
JonNC JonNC is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: December 15, 2007
Posts: 17,310
Religion: Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod)
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BILL PICK View Post
Jesus drank wine. That said, let's look at the historical circumstances. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and Passover (the time of the Last Supper) is in the spring. Without refrigeration, grapes (and grape juice) do not keep very well. Within a few days after the harvest, grapes begin to ferment and/or rot. The only methods of preservation available to the 1st century citizen were to extract the juice and let it ferment under somewhat controlled conditions (this is called wine making) or to dry the grapes which resulted in raisins. At the Last Supper Jesus said "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine" (Matthew 26:29, KJV). In those days they made wine from a number of different fruits but the wine of the grape, the "fruit of the vine," was alone used at Passover. Since this was spring, and the Passover liturgy called for all participants to drink four cups of wine, grape juice preserved by fermentation (wine) was most certainly used or at least one of the Gospel writers would have remarked about the departure from the natural; as they did so often about all His other miracles. The prescriptions for celebrating the Passover called for the cups of wine to be diluted with water. This was necessary because the fermentation process made it rather strong and also because the vessels they kept the wine in were somewhat porous and the wine tended to become thick with age as moisture escaped. This is the historical background behind why the priest adds a drop of water to the chalice during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Wine not well protected from the air while it was stored became sour wine (vinegar).
Well said, Bill.
Jon
__________________
“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
  #3  
Old Dec 21, '08, 6:17 am
rmcmullan rmcmullan is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2005
Posts: 930
Religion: Mormon
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

I'm no expert but I have been told that unless it was specifically designated as new wine, it had been fermented, i.e. it was wine.

Quote:
Mark 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
There are a few other references to new wine.
  #4  
Old Dec 21, '08, 6:22 am
Reuben J's Avatar
Reuben J Reuben J is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2005
Posts: 5,710
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

What's the idea of this thread, Bill? Just asking. The Bible says wine and I am curious if there is other meaning to it.
__________________

Lord, by your cross and resurrection
you have set us free.
You are the Savior of the world.


Life begins at conception not implantation.
  #5  
Old Dec 21, '08, 8:24 am
LegoGE1947 LegoGE1947 is offline
Veteran Member
Greeter
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Posts: 11,534
Religion: Catholic Convert
Send a message via MSN to LegoGE1947 Send a message via Yahoo to LegoGE1947
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben J View Post
What's the idea of this thread, Bill? Just asking. The Bible says wine and I am curious if there is other meaning to it.
It had to be wine because Welch's process to preserve grape juice had not come along yet
  #6  
Old Aug 30, '09, 10:09 pm
garth garth is offline
Trial Membership
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Posts: 1
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I was having a pleasant discussion about this very topic with a protestant friend just recently. He was taught that the drink was grape juice because the juice was from recently alive fruit representing life. Wine was from fermented dead grapes thus representing death. The point of the Lord's Supper was to symbolize the new life in the new covenant. That was his argument that it must have been grape juice.

I'm glad to have more information to substantiate my belief. I told him that if you were having Christ, the Son of God, The King of Kings, over for a meal you would serve the best beverage you had which would have been a wine, not juice.
  #7  
Old Aug 30, '09, 10:23 pm
Religio71 Religio71 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2009
Posts: 929
Religion: former LDS, currently Catholic
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben J View Post
What's the idea of this thread, Bill? Just asking. The Bible says wine and I am curious if there is other meaning to it.
Well various Protestant churches use grape juice instead of wine, and the LDS Church (Mormon) uses water. So he is wondering why some use not-wine for Communion when Jesus used wine.
  #8  
Old Aug 30, '09, 10:28 pm
pipper pipper is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2009
Posts: 525
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcmullan View Post
I'm no expert but I have been told that unless it was specifically designated as new wine, it had been fermented, i.e. it was wine.



There are a few other references to new wine.
Why do you think it was unfermented grape juice? It has been already explained to you that grape juice starts the process of fermentation immediatly (SP).

That is just one of the rules of God-created nature.

To explain further the naturally occuring yeasts on the skin of the grape start thier natural process of fermentation as soon as the grapes are pressed. The only ways of preventing fermentation are either refrigeration or Pastuerisation neither one of them existed until recently in the 2,000 years of Christianity.

Yes I know all about the "Word of Wisdom" but you don't really have a dog in this fight anyway, for your church uses water in the sacrament and neither wine or grape juice.
  #9  
Old Aug 30, '09, 10:43 pm
pipper pipper is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2009
Posts: 525
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by garth View Post
I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I was having a pleasant discussion about this very topic with a protestant friend just recently. He was taught that the drink was grape juice because the juice was from recently alive fruit representing life. Wine was from fermented dead grapes thus representing death. The point of the Lord's Supper was to symbolize the new life in the new covenant. That was his argument that it must have been grape juice.

I'm glad to have more information to substantiate my belief. I told him that if you were having Christ, the Son of God, The King of Kings, over for a meal you would serve the best beverage you had which would have been a wine, not juice.
Some Protestant fundamentalists consider wine to be taboo, nasty and forbidden. It came from the prohibition movement of the 19th century and culminated in the prohibition of any alcoholic drinks in 1920.

A lot of them still consider alcohol taboo. Witness the dry counties throughout the South where anyplace the fundamentalists gain a majority they sort of "ban" alcohol. But they make huge exceptions. I personally live in a dry county myself but if anyone wants a drink they can have it. For the moneyed there are the country clubs, Eagles, Moose Lodges, Shriners where any member can drink to their heart's content. For those with less money they can just drive 30 miles to the county line. Of course the banning fundamentalists don't consider the deaths from people driving to the next county and drinking all the way back home.
  #10  
Old Aug 31, '09, 3:08 am
wwolverine wwolverine is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2009
Posts: 428
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Well what about the first miracle Jesus performed by turning water into wine? Was that wine as fermented wine, or Juice?
  #11  
Old Aug 31, '09, 3:31 am
kalt's Avatar
kalt kalt is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2008
Posts: 2,755
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipper View Post
Some Protestant fundamentalists consider wine to be taboo, nasty and forbidden. It came from the prohibition movement of the 19th century and culminated in the prohibition of any alcoholic drinks in 1920.

A lot of them still consider alcohol taboo. Witness the dry counties throughout the South where anyplace the fundamentalists gain a majority they sort of "ban" alcohol. But they make huge exceptions. I personally live in a dry county myself but if anyone wants a drink they can have it. For the moneyed there are the country clubs, Eagles, Moose Lodges, Shriners where any member can drink to their heart's content. For those with less money they can just drive 30 miles to the county line. Of course the banning fundamentalists don't consider the deaths from people driving to the next county and drinking all the way back home.
I know a few alcoholics who were drawn to these religions when they stopped drinking. It seems that they needed a religion that was strict on drinking--they needed the support of an institution that didn't allow any drinking, since the rest of the world celebrates just about everything with a drink. Actually, everyone I know who has joined one of these strict churches had problems - drinking, drugs, and gambling. I know that there are members who didn't have problems, but danged if I've met them.

It makes you wonder, though, if this is what is drawing them to the religion - not the theology, but the social constraints. They need the authority of the institution telling them not to party at all. No gambling at all. No drinking at all.

If it's working for them....
  #12  
Old Aug 31, '09, 3:39 am
kalt's Avatar
kalt kalt is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2008
Posts: 2,755
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwolverine View Post
Well what about the first miracle Jesus performed by turning water into wine? Was that wine as fermented wine, or Juice?

Wine.

I've heard some say that it couldn't have been wine because there was no "time" for it to ferment. I wasn't aware that miracles take "time", though. I guess God can create grape juice from nothing, but can't create wine from nothing. He has to make grape juice from nothing and then wait (in mortal time) for it to ferment, because, though God is great and all, it takes "time" to make wine.

That dead grapes argument? I guess if you can think of grapes as dead or alive, wouldn't you have to say that grapes "die" when they're no longer good? So, good grapes on the vine are alive. Good grapes in juice are alive. Good grapes in wine are alive. Raisins are alive. I've heard of fresh grapes, but not alive grapes.
  #13  
Old Aug 31, '09, 3:59 am
LegoGE1947 LegoGE1947 is offline
Veteran Member
Greeter
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Posts: 11,534
Religion: Catholic Convert
Send a message via MSN to LegoGE1947 Send a message via Yahoo to LegoGE1947
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipper View Post
Some Protestant fundamentalists consider wine to be taboo, nasty and forbidden. It came from the prohibition movement of the 19th century and culminated in the prohibition of any alcoholic drinks in 1920.

A lot of them still consider alcohol taboo. Witness the dry counties throughout the South where anyplace the fundamentalists gain a majority they sort of "ban" alcohol. But they make huge exceptions. I personally live in a dry county myself but if anyone wants a drink they can have it. For the moneyed there are the country clubs, Eagles, Moose Lodges, Shriners where any member can drink to their heart's content. For those with less money they can just drive 30 miles to the county line. Of course the banning fundamentalists don't consider the deaths from people driving to the next county and drinking all the way back home.
As the country group Alabama said once, many of those counties aren't "dry" they're just "damp". Meaning there's alcohol if you know where to look for it.
  #14  
Old Aug 31, '09, 7:29 am
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 19, 2007
Posts: 8,745
Religion: Orthodox
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

What do you get when you crush grapes?

If you answer "grape juice," you gave the wrong answer.

You get wine.

Why do I say this?

Because fermentation starts immediately from the yeasts on the skins.
  #15  
Old Aug 31, '09, 7:45 am
cthulhubryan cthulhubryan is offline
Prayer Warrior
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2008
Posts: 3,400
Religion: Protestant (Methodist) wanting to come home.
Default Re: Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by garth View Post
He was taught that the drink was grape juice because the juice was from recently alive fruit representing life. Wine was from fermented dead grapes thus representing death. The point of the Lord's Supper was to symbolize the new life in the new covenant. That was his argument that it must have been grape juice.
Does this remind anyone else of "The Princess Bride" when they say that Wesley is not "fully dead" but only "mostly dead"

Recently alive is just another phrase for dead.

Now, if you take the argument seriously that it must be grape juice (I have fun with our minister about this) then because the grapes were only "mostly dead" then the juice should not be considered "alive" but rather "undead" Therefore if you believe that Jesus made grape juice instead of wine then instead of being raised from the dead (as wine is brought about from "fully dead" grapes) Jesus was only "mostly dead" and He arose as the "undead".

Therefore if you believe it was grape juice you must also acknowledge that you are worshiping a zombie and not God.
__________________
Hello, my name is Bryan and I am a heretic. But I'm getting better, promise.
Sts. Ignatious of Loyola and Pope Pius V, please pray for me that I will be able to be united with Christ in the Catholic Church soon. Amen
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8349Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: svid2
5088CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: eschator83
4408Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3858SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3674Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: James_OPL
3268Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3244Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3218Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3085For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 9:14 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.