Catholic FAQ


We were unable to reach our goal for the summer but we have reached 98%
Please consider donating if you can and keep us in your prayers.


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Feb 17, '09, 9:46 am
Saint2B Saint2B is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2005
Posts: 42
Religion: Catholic
Wink Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

A common issue with Protestants is that they claim equal rights to early church history and partisitc figures, becuase in their view, this was a time that catholic, was "little c" and did not mean the Roman Catholic Church.

This topic is intended to let people contribute know ledge they on how the move from little c to big C happened and how continuity was maintained to show that the people of the early Christian era are indeed Catholics?

One initial thought is showing that the figures in the patristic era followed the same practices that we do, and that they do not preach definitively Protestant dogma. They practiced Mass, show evidence of fostering infant baptism, counseled people to confession, etc. So, this makes them Catholic.

also, the Church fathers of this era did not preach any dogmas that are considered Protestant. so, God saving us by his grace, wouldn't count as this is a Catholic idea, whereas Once Saved Always saved (OSAS) would be something we would not explicitly find in the writing of the magesterium of the early Christian era.

A third idea is to show that the "little c" of the time was made up of the beliefs and practices we use today as Catholics.

Feel free to contribute.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Feb 17, '09, 7:06 pm
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2004
Posts: 5,091
Religion: Latin Catholic
Default Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

"catholic" with a little c is still used as a mark of the Church. The proper capitalization of the Nicene creed says: "I believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church."
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Feb 17, '09, 7:59 pm
ricko ricko is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 17, 2006
Posts: 1,600
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

The name "Catholic" to refer to the Church, first documented use was early in the 2nd century around 108 AD. The Nicene Creed was established with "Catholic" in 381 AD. The Church then was being called the Catholic Church more than 2 centuries before the Nicene Creed was written. Therefore the Creed refers not to just the church universal (small c) but to the Catholic Church established by Christ. The Protestant churches that use the Creed have taken to changing or interpreting the meaning of Catholic as used in the creed to a small "c" to suit their beliefs against what the writers of the Creed intended, Catholic as in the name of the Church. Some churches instead of changing the meaning of "Catholic" have simply changed the Creed itself by inserting "Christian" in place of Catholic.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9311def.asp
__________________
RICK
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Feb 18, '09, 7:28 am
porthos11 porthos11 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2004
Posts: 5,091
Religion: Latin Catholic
Default Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricko View Post
The name "Catholic" to refer to the Church, first documented use was early in the 2nd century around 108 AD. The Nicene Creed was established with "Catholic" in 381 AD. The Church then was being called the Catholic Church more than 2 centuries before the Nicene Creed was written. Therefore the Creed refers not to just the church universal (small c) but to the Catholic Church established by Christ. The Protestant churches that use the Creed have taken to changing or interpreting the meaning of Catholic as used in the creed to a small "c" to suit their beliefs against what the writers of the Creed intended, Catholic as in the name of the Church. Some churches instead of changing the meaning of "Catholic" have simply changed the Creed itself by inserting "Christian" in place of Catholic.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9311def.asp
When used to refer to the mark, the proper spelling is "catholic." When used to refer to the Church as a reference, then it's properly spelled "Catholic."

The Nicene Creed's use of "catholic" is as a mark, one of four: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. It is therefore more properly spelled "catholic" rather than "Catholic". "Christian" is not a mark, and its use in creeds to replace "catholic" is plain wrong, since heretics are often Christians too.

For the Apostle's Creed, however, I feel that Catholic is better spelled with an uppercase C, since it's referring to the Church as the Catholic Church, and not as a mark of the Church.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Feb 18, '09, 7:47 am
CentralFLJames CentralFLJames is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: November 7, 2007
Posts: 5,390
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite: orthodox/conservative)
Default Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint2B View Post
A common issue with Protestants is that they claim equal rights to early church history and partisitc figures, becuase in their view, this was a time that catholic, was "little c" and did not mean the Roman Catholic Church.

This topic is intended to let people contribute know ledge they on how the move from little c to big C happened and how continuity was maintained to show that the people of the early Christian era are indeed Catholics?

One initial thought is showing that the figures in the patristic era followed the same practices that we do, and that they do not preach definitively Protestant dogma. They practiced Mass, show evidence of fostering infant baptism, counseled people to confession, etc. So, this makes them Catholic.

also, the Church fathers of this era did not preach any dogmas that are considered Protestant. so, God saving us by his grace, wouldn't count as this is a Catholic idea, whereas Once Saved Always saved (OSAS) would be something we would not explicitly find in the writing of the magesterium of the early Christian era.

A third idea is to show that the "little c" of the time was made up of the beliefs and practices we use today as Catholics.

Feel free to contribute.

The fundamental problem is they only want selective history.

They want to forget that they came out of PROTEST to The Catholic Church and want to erase that bit of history as if it never existed and relink themselves in front of their geneology (e.g. The Catholic Church apostolic succession) to claim they are somthing they never were. It's like a rude child after attaining a certain age just one day electing to walk up to her parents and say:

"Just because I happened to live in this house with you my whole life (she just "came of age" at 18) does not make me Ms. Jane Smith" - that is only a name YOU gave me. Just because YOU tell me that my grandfathers are Peter and John and my grandmothers are Mary and Anna does not really make it so. Frankly, I think you were mixed up at the hospital at birth and these just adopted you. If I say so myself you don't act anything like they do but I do. So I am clearly a misplaced child and am more a granddaughter of them than you are their siblings. So as of today I divorce myself from you, am changing my name and moving out and taking all MY old family traditions and cooking recipes with me and getting back in touch with MY roots! From now on I am called Ms. Truly Smith and I am calling you Mr. & Mrs. Imposter Smith. Goodbye!"


James
__________________
Free 1,000 Souls From Purgatory & they will pray for you unceasingly all your life!

Join the Dominican Fathers Rosary Cofraternity for extra indulgences!

Pray The Chaplet of Divine Mercy!

Last edited by CentralFLJames; Feb 18, '09 at 7:58 am.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Feb 18, '09, 1:44 pm
broski234 broski234 is offline
Junior Member
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Posts: 434
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralFLJames View Post
The fundamental problem is they only want selective history.

They want to forget that they came out of PROTEST to The Catholic Church and want to erase that bit of history as if it never existed and relink themselves in front of their geneology (e.g. The Catholic Church apostolic succession) to claim they are somthing they never were. It's like a rude child after attaining a certain age just one day electing to walk up to her parents and say:

"Just because I happened to live in this house with you my whole life (she just "came of age" at 18) does not make me Ms. Jane Smith" - that is only a name YOU gave me. Just because YOU tell me that my grandfathers are Peter and John and my grandmothers are Mary and Anna does not really make it so. Frankly, I think you were mixed up at the hospital at birth and these just adopted you. If I say so myself you don't act anything like they do but I do. So I am clearly a misplaced child and am more a granddaughter of them than you are their siblings. So as of today I divorce myself from you, am changing my name and moving out and taking all MY old family traditions and cooking recipes with me and getting back in touch with MY roots! From now on I am called Ms. Truly Smith and I am calling you Mr. & Mrs. Imposter Smith. Goodbye!"


James
Nice job James! Quite creative I must say
__________________
Brock

1 Tim 3:15: "If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Feb 18, '09, 5:33 pm
ricko ricko is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 17, 2006
Posts: 1,600
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

"The third mark of the Church is that she is Catholic, that is, universal; and justly is she called Catholic, because, as St. Augustine says, 'she is diffused by the splendor of one faith from the rising to the setting sun'.

St Augustine calls Catholic the third mark while at the same time capitalizing it.
__________________
RICK
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Feb 18, '09, 5:43 pm
broski234 broski234 is offline
Junior Member
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Posts: 434
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

What you do not realize is that as early as 107 A.D., that same group was referred to as the "Catholic Church." In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote,

"You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])
__________________
Brock

1 Tim 3:15: "If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Feb 20, '09, 9:08 am
Saint2B Saint2B is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2005
Posts: 42
Religion: Catholic
Cool Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

Was there any need back then to show the catholic church as an organization?

I hear Protestants speak of visible church and invisible church. I think their argument is that the organization called The Catholic Church was a later development.

From what I can see, the big C little c argument doesn't make sense.

1. The early Catholic church was centrally organized around the pope, then the bishops in areas of the empire.
2. The same core practices and beliefs we have today were followed back then. This included the Mass, baptism, and essential doctrines (including what looks like references to Purgatory)
3. The early Catholic Church distinguished itself by name from other heretical sects and when divisions like the East-West split happened.

I also think that the issue of a legal organization called The Catholic Church developed over time as a body of law required some formal name and structure. It was universally accepted that the Catholic Church was the body of believers extolling the Christian Faith.

The more I read on this and discuss it, the less I see any relevance to Protestant's accusation about the organization called The Catholic Church.

On a side note, is there anything in the Bible against there being an organization? Or this visible, invisible church thing?

If this is such a problem, why didn't the Church Fathers have writing where they deplored someone using the name Catholic separate form the body of believers in the faith? They never raised this issue. Also, in the Middle ages before the reformation/revolt, where is the evidence for a faithful group that maintained (what would become) Protestant theology through the ages?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Feb 20, '09, 9:11 am
Saint2B Saint2B is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2005
Posts: 42
Religion: Catholic
Cool Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

Quote:
Originally Posted by broski234 View Post
"Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])
To Protestants, they call this little "c" meaning just the faith, not an organization. My contention is that the faith was always organized, given there were councils, Popes, Apostolic succession, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Feb 20, '09, 7:10 pm
broski234 broski234 is offline
Junior Member
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Posts: 434
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Move of Catholic from little C to Big C

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint2B View Post
To Protestants, they call this little "c" meaning just the faith, not an organization. My contention is that the faith was always organized, given there were councils, Popes, Apostolic succession, etc.
I agree 100%
__________________
Brock

1 Tim 3:15: "If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8295Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: eschator83
5058CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4348Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: Marla Frances
4032OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: lucia kay
3847SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3597Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3254Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3210Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3177Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3060For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: MarieAlice dodw



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:51 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.