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  #16  
Old Jul 6, '09, 9:50 pm
FastLearner FastLearner is offline
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Default Re: To be baptized in the Catholic Church, do you have to believe in everything the church teaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJTheMan View Post
So you can become a disciple of Christ without having to become Catholic?
To be a Christian, you just need to be validly baptized as a Christian (and the vast majority of protestants do baptize validly). To be a Catholic, you must be in Communion with Rome. You can be a Christian not in Communion with Rome (such as a protestant, which is why protestants are not baptized again when joining the Church).


The Church's view on protestant denominations ("ecclesial Communities") can be seen here (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co....html#_ftn12):

"According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense[20]."

So they are not "Churches" in the same way as the Latin Church or Coptic Catholic Church, however:

"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them."[9]

Further,

“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”[12].
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  #17  
Old Jul 7, '09, 7:08 am
japhy japhy is offline
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Default Re: To be baptized in the Catholic Church, do you have to believe in everything the church teaches?

AJTheMan, we are told by Christ to love God with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind. What do you mean when you say "love Jesus with all your heart"? Does it mean you know WHO Jesus is? Does it mean you follow his commandments? Does it mean you believe he founded a Church and gives certain people charge over it?
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  #18  
Old Jul 7, '09, 7:40 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: To be baptized in the Catholic Church, do you have to believe in everything the church teaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJTheMan View Post
And we all know that if you aren't baptized, according to Christianity, you go to hell.
No, we don't know that at all. The Church doesn't teach that if you aren't baptized you go to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJTheMan View Post
I think my problem here is that if someone loves Jesus with their whole heart and wants to do as Jesus did but disagrees with the church on the tiny details....you cannot become baptized. Why can't your love for Jesus be enough for Baptism? Sure...you should agree with the church but what really matters is that you love Jesus enough to be baptized.
Christ and his Church are one. You are viewing them as two different things. They are not. The doctrines of the Church are the doctrines of Christ. So, if you "disagree" with what the Church teaches, you have a problem because the Church's teachings are from Christ-- "he who hears you, hears me... he who rejects you, rejects me."

That is why study, prayer, and formation are required to take on both the graces of baptism and the responsibilities of baptism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJTheMan View Post
I suppose I am destined to hell for God has made me a heretic towards the church. I welcome the fire.
You should not be so flip about Hell. It's an offense against God.

Only a Catholic can be a heretic. So, you are not a heretic.

I'm not sure why you are unwilling to go through the process necessary to learn what it is you are committing to in baptism. The Church doesn't want people to be baptized without understanding what they are committing to. Baptism carries with it responsibility.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #19  
Old Jul 7, '09, 8:05 am
grandfather grandfather is offline
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Default Re: To be baptized in the Catholic Church, do you have to believe in everything the church teaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
No, we don't know that at all. The Church doesn't teach that if you aren't baptized you go to hell.

Christ and his Church are one. You are viewing them as two different things. They are not. The doctrines of the Church are the doctrines of Christ. So, if you "disagree" with what the Church teaches, you have a problem because the Church's teachings are from Christ-- "he who hears you, hears me... he who rejects you, rejects me."

That is why study, prayer, and formation are required to take on both the graces of baptism and the responsibilities of baptism.

You should not be so flip about Hell. It's an offense against God.

Only a Catholic can be a heretic. So, you are not a heretic.

I'm not sure why you are unwilling to go through the process necessary to learn what it is you are committing to in baptism. The Church doesn't want people to be baptized without understanding what they are committing to. Baptism carries with it responsibility.
1ke,
That was an excellent explanation. Thank you. It should be helpful.
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  #20  
Old Jul 7, '09, 8:50 am
SuscipeMeDomine SuscipeMeDomine is offline
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Default Re: To be baptized in the Catholic Church, do you have to believe in everything the church teaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJTheMan View Post
I think my problem here is that if someone loves Jesus with their whole heart and wants to do as Jesus did but disagrees with the church on the tiny details....you cannot become baptized. Why can't your love for Jesus be enough for Baptism? Sure...you should agree with the church but what really matters is that you love Jesus enough to be baptized.
What are the "tiny details" that would keep you from being baptized?

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandfather View Post
You did indeed add to the confusion. It would have been impossible for your friend to have made baptismal promises and received the sacrament of initiation in the Catholic Church and not become Catholic. If he did not do this the baptism was illicit and quite probably invalid. The priest acted improperly.
Indeed. The Church requires that adults who are baptized are also confirmed and receive their First Eucharist at the same time. You can't separate the sacraments of initiation.
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  #21  
Old Jul 7, '09, 10:26 am
AJTheMan AJTheMan is offline
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Default Re: To be baptized in the Catholic Church, do you have to believe in everything the church teaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeJPurnell View Post
Think of it this way. The Church is a family. Jesus is the head of the family. If you wanted to be adopted into a family, you wouldn't mind that you'd have to agree to obey the head of the family right? If you love the head of the family so much, you'd insist upon it, wouldn't you?
Yes.

But I would also recognize that some members of the family disagree about what makes this head but they nonetheless love him.
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  #22  
Old Jul 7, '09, 10:37 am
AJTheMan AJTheMan is offline
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Default Re: To be baptized in the Catholic Church, do you have to believe in everything the church teaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandfather View Post
AJ,
This is a sincere question. How do we know if someone including onesself loves Jesus with their whole heart?

You can not be a heretic unless you are first a Catholic.

You can not judge yourself, or anyone else. I can not judge me or you. Jesus judges us.

You are right. If you love God you will be saved. Anyone who loves God will be saved. How do you know if you do? How do I know if I do?
I thought that the only way to be saved was to be baptized...


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
You should not be so flip about Hell. It's an offense against God.

Only a Catholic can be a heretic. So, you are not a heretic.

I'm not sure why you are unwilling to go through the process necessary to learn what it is you are committing to in baptism. The Church doesn't want people to be baptized without understanding what they are committing to. Baptism carries with it responsibility.
I went to one year of RCIA. Three months in inquiry. Each session was two and a half hours, every Sunday.


Thanks for the answers, guys. I'll ponder them.

Edit: Also, I hope I didn't come off as antagonistic. I just wanted some clarification on church teaching. I didn't want to challenge it but just to ask questions about it.
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  #23  
Old Jul 7, '09, 12:59 pm
grandfather grandfather is offline
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Default Re: To be baptized in the Catholic Church, do you have to believe in everything the church teaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJTheMan View Post
I thought that the only way to be saved was to be baptized...
In scripture Jesus commanded His apostles to baptize. He also says that if we call Him lord, lord, but do not do what He tells us then He is no good to us.

It is certainly true that if you love God you will be saved. How do you know if you love God? Jesus said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. John writes that the love of God consists in this, that we obey His commandments.

If He tells us to be baptized and we refuse we are not keeping His commandments, doing what He tells us to do. That means both that we do not love Him and that He can not help us.

Perhaps you might try another RCIA program. Some are much better than others.
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