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  #31  
Old Jul 7, '09, 11:38 pm
mpi mpi is offline
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Default Re: Pope defines real social development, drawing on Paul VI [CNA]

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Originally Posted by JaMc View Post
I wasn't saying that the Pope was saying government provided universal health care is good. I was expressing my concern for his apparent call for greater foreign aid, and using healthcare as an example of something we should do at home before we start sending money abroad (I hope my comment doesn't turn this thread into a debate on healthcare).

One other thing, did anyone else notice that the Pope has abandoned the use of the "Royal We," which he had seemed to have revived in his previous encyclicals?
My point, and my read of the Pope's point, is that Universal heath care is a component of the welfare state which he condemns. It is, therefore, bad to have universal healthcare.
  #32  
Old Jul 8, '09, 12:49 am
Tsuwano Tsuwano is offline
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Default Re: Pope defines real social development, drawing on Paul VI [CNA]

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My point, and my read of the Pope's point, is that Universal heath care is a component of the welfare state which he condemns. It is, therefore, bad to have universal healthcare.
Say what? Where in this encyclical does the Holy Father condemn universal health care or say that universal health care is a component of the welfare state? You're attempting to spin the document to reflect your own ideological bias.
  #33  
Old Jul 8, '09, 3:00 am
mpi mpi is offline
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Default Re: Pope defines real social development, drawing on Paul VI [CNA]

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Originally Posted by Tsuwano View Post
Say what? Where in this encyclical does the Holy Father condemn universal health care or say that universal health care is a component of the welfare state? You're attempting to spin the document to reflect your own ideological bias.
Please define welfare state and you will have your answer.
  #34  
Old Jul 8, '09, 4:44 am
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Default Re: New Encyclical: 'Caritas in Veritate': Moral Values Must be Part of Economic Recovery, Development

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Originally Posted by irishpatrick View Post
If that is true...it concerns me greatly...have to read it...
The parts I have read so far are terrifying. There is no single human being or group of human beings that I would trust in any way to run the entire world -- I have not seen any evidence that human beings can even run a small town without corruption and criminality quickly overwhelming them. Lord of the Flies, the Obama Thugocracy, the City of Toronto and the current strike by all unionized city workers that is filling our city with garbage, rats and screaming Mommies who are having nervous breakdowns because they dont want the rats and flies and vermin OR the pesticides that would eradicate them, and the Union pickets are making sure they have the vermin and the Ministry of Health is making sure they have the pesticides. Imagine this scenario spread to the whole world. No thank you!

Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.

His Holiness should not meddle in things which he clearly does not understand and economics on a worldwide stage is clearly one of those things he should leave alone.

That is my opinion.
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  #35  
Old Jul 8, '09, 4:45 am
Feanor2 Feanor2 is offline
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Default Re: Pope defines real social development, drawing on Paul VI [CNA]

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Originally Posted by mpi View Post
Two social encyclicals in a row condemn the welfare state - Centesimus Annus and this one. Is the Pope really saying that government provided universal health care is good? - I think it is just the opposite.
Is this an attempt to spin the Holy Father's words? I am so happy with the contents of this encyclical but surely the cafeteria Catholics on the right will ignore the Holy Father's message and continue the hyper-GOP agenda.

I thought only the liberals pick and chose what to pay attention to from the Church. . .

Last edited by Feanor2; Jul 8, '09 at 4:56 am.
  #36  
Old Jul 8, '09, 4:54 am
Appleby Appleby is offline
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Default Re: Pope defines real social development, drawing on Paul VI [CNA]

Fortunately the Pope does not make government policy in any country these days. He is entitled to his opinion, same as anyone else.

I am still waiting to hear just whom you liberals would put in charge of the world and at the head of *The UN With Teeth* -- and how you would force people to hand over our income to support it ...

You cannot enslave a free man. You can only kill him. Robert Heinlein said that many years ago. He was talking about communism and totalitarianism.

So is His Holiness, except that the Pope is trying to dress it up in pretty clothes ...
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  #37  
Old Jul 8, '09, 6:40 am
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Joe 5859 Joe 5859 is offline
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Default Re: Pope defines real social development, drawing on Paul VI [CNA]

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Originally Posted by Stylite View Post
the UN section is tough to understand outside of the context of the rest of the encyclical.

This is his key caveat to his idea of re-purposing the UN:

"In order not to produce a dangerous universal power of a tyrannical nature, the governance of globalization must be marked by subsidiarity, articulated into several layers and involving different levels that can work together. Globalization certainly requires authority, insofar as it poses the problem of a global common good that needs to be pursued. This authority, however, must be organized in a subsidiary and stratified way[138], if it is not to infringe upon freedom and if it is to yield effective results in practice."

One has to read all the prior sections to see what he means by "subsidiarity" and how it relates to government and liberty.
Highlight and bold this post!!!

I think we all need to keep this point in mind. The Pope is not advocating some universal tyrant (or group of tyrants) to govern the whole world. His comments must be seen in relation to this emphasis on subsidiarity (that which can be managed on the lowest level should be managed on the lowest level).

Think of how the Church operates. The Pope is the head, and his authority certainly has "teeth", but he doesn't micromanage every parish and diocese in the whole world.

Before we jump on the Pope for "sticking his nose where it doesn't belong", let's make sure we understand what he is saying.

Remember what Pope Benedict XVI says in his intro to his book Jesus of Nazareth:

“I would only ask my readers for that initial goodwill without which there can be no understanding.”

Good advice.
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  #38  
Old Jul 8, '09, 7:24 am
itsallgrace itsallgrace is offline
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Default Re: Pope defines real social development, drawing on Paul VI [CNA]

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Originally Posted by Feanor2 View Post
Is this an attempt to spin the Holy Father's words? I am so happy with the contents of this encyclical but surely the cafeteria Catholics on the right will ignore the Holy Father's message and continue the hyper-GOP agenda.

I thought only the liberals pick and chose what to pay attention to from the Church. . .
The radical LEFT will ABSOLUTELY cherry-pick this thing and that is why the conservative, free-market loving, ethical right are fearful of some of the language being used in this encyclical. You and I understand that the Pope is addressing every nation and their individual problems, but unfortunately, words that reflect a good thing in one part of the world can mean something completely different in another part of the world. Generally, a liberty-loving American will wince at the very mention of "globalization" or "redistribution of wealth". Some examples that may be "cherry-picked":

"The processes of globalization, suitably understood and directed, open up the unprecedented possibility of large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale."

[in talking about reforming the U.N.]"...there is urgent need of a true world political authority"

"Lowering the level of protection accorded to the rights of workers, or abandoning mechanisms of wealth redistribution in order to increase the country's international competitiveness, hinder the achievement of lasting development."

Once Obama & Co. has used these words to promote their agenda of strengthening our corrupt labor unions and "stealing from the hard-working and giving to the lazy", will the Vatican will come out and clarify in our defense? The July 10th meeting is bound to be a win-win for Obama. He's a master of manipulation and I have no doubt that Satan is his biggest supporter and advisor.

The only reason I even attempted to read the document is because my local radio station announced it as the pope's call for a "new world order." The spin has begun.
  #39  
Old Jul 8, '09, 8:20 am
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: New Encyclical: 'Caritas in Veritate': Moral Values Must be Part of Economic Recovery, Development

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Originally Posted by Neil_Anthony View Post
Calls for U.N. with more teeth and good globalization.

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Originally Posted by irishpatrick View Post
If that is true...it concerns me greatly...have to read it...
Oh my, it greatly concerns me as well. We need to take this in very small sections and pray and discern. Help us to understand, Lord, with the light of YOUR wisdom, this thing called "globalization."
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  #40  
Old Jul 8, '09, 8:57 am
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: Pope defines real social development, drawing on Paul VI [CNA]

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Originally Posted by Feanor2 View Post
Is this an attempt to spin the Holy Father's words? I am so happy with the contents of this encyclical but surely the cafeteria Catholics on the right will ignore the Holy Father's message and continue the hyper-GOP agenda.

I thought only the liberals pick and chose what to pay attention to from the Church. . .
I think the reality is that the Church is a hybrid of liberal and conservative viewpoints. As another poster mentioned, the key is to understand the principle of subsidiarity.

Quote:
57. Fruitful dialogue between faith and reason cannot but render the work of charity more effective within society, and it constitutes the most appropriate framework for promoting fraternal collaboration between believers and non-believers in their shared commitment to working for justice and the peace of the human family. In the Pastoral Constitution Gaudium et Spes, the Council fathers asserted that “believers and unbelievers agree almost unanimously that all things on earth should be ordered towards man as to their centre and summit”[136]. For believers, the world derives neither from blind chance nor from strict necessity, but from God's plan. This is what gives rise to the duty of believers to unite their efforts with those of all men and women of good will, with the followers of other religions and with non-believers, so that this world of ours may effectively correspond to the divine plan: living as a family under the Creator's watchful eye. A particular manifestation of charity and a guiding criterion for fraternal cooperation between believers and non-believers is undoubtedly the principle of subsidiarity[137], an expression of inalienable human freedom. Subsidiarity is first and foremost a form of assistance to the human person via the autonomy of intermediate bodies. Such assistance is offered when individuals or groups are unable to accomplish something on their own, and it is always designed to achieve their emancipation, because it fosters freedom and participation through assumption of responsibility. Subsidiarity respects personal dignity by recognizing in the person a subject who is always capable of giving something to others. By considering reciprocity as the heart of what it is to be a human being, subsidiarity is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state. It is able to take account both of the manifold articulation of plans — and therefore of the plurality of subjects — as well as the coordination of those plans. Hence the principle of subsidiarity is particularly well-suited to managing globalization and directing it towards authentic human development. In order not to produce a dangerous universal power of a tyrannical nature, the governance of globalization must be marked by subsidiarity, articulated into several layers and involving different levels that can work together. Globalization certainly requires authority, insofar as it poses the problem of a global common good that needs to be pursued. This authority, however, must be organized in a subsidiary and stratified way[138], if it is not to infringe upon freedom and if it is to yield effective results in practice.
In other words, the Church is not opposed to government-sponsored welfare, but it should be done as close to the individual as possible. Private charity is preferred because it has more of a dimension of caring and love. The State may have to help, but only when people can't "accomplish it on their own."

How this translates to the USA, imnsho, is that welfare, healthcare, et al, should not be handled from a national level. I have no problem with unfunded mandates that direct what the states need to cover (e.g. "a living wage" or "access to basic healthcare for all citizens"), but the details, administration and funding should be left to the states and/or counties. Minimum wage is a particular pet peeve of mine because it is so meaningless at a federal level. In fact, it is best handled at a county level.

This is beyond the Republican and Democrat partisan bickering. I am more Democrat at the local level (except for life issues) and Libertarian/Republican at the federal level. Everything I read in papal encyclicals seems to support that.
  #41  
Old Jul 8, '09, 9:00 am
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: New Encyclical: 'Caritas in Veritate': Moral Values Must be Part of Economic Recovery, Development

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Originally Posted by Feanor2 View Post
Oh really. . . .

Not conservative enough?
Regarding the UN, I think all Catholics, conservative and liberal, should be concerned about the possible abuse of this encyclical. The UN is not particularly pro-Catholic when it comes to moral concerns. There are many that push for an international right to abortion, gay marriage, etc.

If Pope Benedict's call for subsidiarity is heeded, then making the UN more effective is a good goal. However, there is much risk in creating a "universal power of tyrannical nature."
  #42  
Old Jul 8, '09, 9:37 am
JaMc JaMc is offline
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Default Re: New Encyclical: 'Caritas in Veritate': Moral Values Must be Part of Economic Recovery, Development

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Originally Posted by rlg94086 View Post
Regarding the UN, I think all Catholics, conservative and liberal, should be concerned about the possible abuse of this encyclical. The UN is not particularly pro-Catholic when it comes to moral concerns. There are many that push for an international right to abortion, gay marriage, etc.

If Pope Benedict's call for subsidiarity is heeded, then making the UN more effective is a good goal. However, there is much risk in creating a "universal power of tyrannical nature."
From an academic and scholarly standpoint, taken as a whole, the letter is not all that bad. However, one problem is that he does not seem to consider how, in the "real world," it will be used. Globalists will latch onto the part calling for a "UN with more teeth," and entirely ignore the language on subsidiarity, as will Evangelical Protestants, who will use it as yet another excuse to malign the Church. Much like how Bp. Chaput's document on faithful citizenship was spun to justify voting for pro-abortion candidates.
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  #43  
Old Jul 8, '09, 9:39 am
rlg94086 rlg94086 is offline
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Default Re: New Encyclical: 'Caritas in Veritate': Moral Values Must be Part of Economic Recovery, Development

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Originally Posted by JaMc View Post
From an academic and scholarly standpoint, taken as a whole, the letter is not all that bad. However, one problem is that he does not seem to consider how, in the "real world," it will be used. Globalists will latch onto the part calling for a "UN with more teeth," and entirely ignore the language on subsidiarity, as will Evangelical Protestants, who will use it as yet another excuse to malign the Church. Much like how Bp. Chaput's document on faithful citizenship was spun to justify voting for pro-abortion candidates.
Exactly.
  #44  
Old Jul 8, '09, 11:06 am
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Default Re: New Encyclical: 'Caritas in Veritate': Moral Values Must be Part of Economic Recovery, Development

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Oh my, it greatly concerns me as well. We need to take this in very small sections and pray and discern. Help us to understand, Lord, with the light of YOUR wisdom, this thing called "globalization."
The greatest example of globalization is the Catholic Church herself. One could also possibly say it's the greatest example of "globalization with subsidiarity", when one considers the sovereignty of the bishops.

There's a lot of meat on the bone here. Even as a conservative - and a fiscal conservative - I find that there's a great risk of hypocrisy when we immediately decry the notion of globalization - and some sort of unifying oversight of economic concerns - while at the same time sustaining and growing our economies at a lightning pace through the pursuit of... wait for it... globalization. We conveniently accept "globalization" when it jacks the stock market to 13,000. We quickly demonize it when the market goes to 8,000 and someone recommends a little bit of fair and just regulation.
  #45  
Old Jul 8, '09, 11:11 am
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Brendan Brendan is offline
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Default Re: New Encyclical: 'Caritas in Veritate': Moral Values Must be Part of Economic Recovery, Development

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Originally Posted by Neil_Anthony View Post
Calls for U.N. with more teeth and good globalization.
More specifically, it calls for a Pro-Life U.N. that has an unwavering commitment to Freedom.
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