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  #46  
Old Jul 12, '09, 10:27 am
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

Quote:
Originally Posted by antinwo
Yes, remember that the pope and the U.N. are the bad guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
What an odd statement for a Catholic. You think our spiritual head is a bad guy?
I took it as sarcasm in response to the post by Archie.. is needed for making sarcasm explicit.

If not a sarcastic remark, it just relates to how the transcendent is lost on some. The entire encyclical is about the transcendent spiritual good (truth, charity) that must be a part of the individual, the group (as make up institutions) and in the charter and actions of those institutions. The political authority is temporal good in the distribution of the temporal, getting goods and services organized and moved, and if based on the transcendent spiritual goods of truth in charity (Jesus) becomes free from all that selfishness, greed, and animosity that is inherent in man because of original sin. The financial mess reached all over the globe and shows the interconnectedness of that world that if one is hurt, all are effected and has implications for many more things than finance. Food, energy, conflicts, won't just effect the state alone, but now has global impacted. The pope is calling on us to be aware and is offering the Church's insight.
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  #47  
Old Jul 14, '09, 9:06 am
RonTheNewJew RonTheNewJew is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

I keep wondering what the meaning of the phrase "political authoriy" means. On the world stage it sounds like the US dominated UN, although with the Chinese communists getting a bit tired of loaning the United States Government more and more money to give to it's wealthy bankers who then stick it into offshore, tax-free bank accounts instead of spending it in ways to hire more US citizens into businesses that got loans from those bankers, WHEN will Buddhist China replace the US as controlling force behind the UN?

What kind of "political" authority is the Pope talking about? Is it the kind that could then be subverted to serve the interests of, let's say, various major world religious leaders? Most likely either Buddhist, Muslim, or even Catholic?? All of these organizations have a long history of using state power to enforce their attempts at dominion through dogma. Even Protestants had some history of this, mostly in Europe after the beginning of the various inquisitions, etc. and in response to them.

I think that, if religious leaders want to "bring others into the fold," so to speak, that they do it the old fashioned way: one free-choice human heart at a time. John, the Revelator seems to indicate that the whole world will, at a time when the wealthy no longer hide their selfish evil hearts of stone, and come out of the closets, so to speak, causing governments to lie to their own decent people about why their sons and daughters should go to war and die and kill (such as what happened during the last, the Bush, administration with Iraq), then I think that the safest way is NOT for some easily manipulated world "political authority" (ie, world government...), but for a better informed, politically independent public in all countries.

Such informed independence fosters democracy, political awareness, better education of adults and children, and political decisions based on better moral bases because, in general, individuals and small groups can give weight to laws and ordinancs that respect the dignity and rights of minorities, instead of a massive collective decisionmaking process that benefits only those who go along with whatever the "authority" tells them to.
As Catholic President of the United States, John F. Kennedy said, not long before those on the "right" hired mafia/CIA thugs to publicly murder him, "What good is it to fight against those who would take our freedoms away, if by so fighting those forces, we give up the very freedoms we say we cherish to some national security state or government in the effort?"

President Kennedy spoke out against "secrecy and secret oaths and secret socieities." They were, in the final analysis, the very forces who, when he tried to limit their expanding power in collaboration with large US oil and weapons manufacturing companies, and his brother, as Attorney-General, had investigated the criminal malfeasance and even Texas murders for political gain, Vice-President, Lyndon B. Johnson, by threatening Johnson with not only political undoing, but prison, that the Military-Congressional-Industrial Complex (Eisenhower, Jan. 17, 1961), had LBJ just where they needed him. That was when they went through Lee Oswald's CIA/FBI connections in New Orleans, LA., and got him the job at the Texas School Book Depository to supposedly infiltrate the actual group of CIA/Mafia assassins (which documents show he did) to stop the plot, and the CIA and FBI instead set him up to take the fall for what THEY did to JFK.

Though I may not have agreed with his religious beliefs, I did like him as President. He stood firmly for the principles he believed in. He was brave. Secrecy, within the ranks of his own administration knew about, but did nothing to stop the plot. He was fighting for more diversity. Not less, as is now being suggested with this "world political authority."

Obama needs to have done far more than just to have taken a motorcade right, with Ted Kennedy in tow, through Dealey Plaza past the grassy knoll from which two shots were fired in addition to those from the Book Depository and Daltex buildings. He did that for political gain. He now needs to go back and at least try to act like the man whose death there made the grassy knoll and Dealey Plaza famous.

Kennedy initiated the return to American money, not the printed in England money of the Federal Reserve. The "Fed" is the main reason for all the borrowing and giving of hundreds of billions of US dollars to rich bankers and Wall Street brokerages who caused the current economic mayhem in the first place.
  #48  
Old Jul 14, '09, 1:50 pm
Capulilo Capulilo is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

I really appreciate the link to lifesite news. I knew what the pope said was being spun.... I just didn't know how much or how to understand it. That one article helped a lot. Thanks!
  #49  
Old Jul 14, '09, 1:57 pm
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Default Re: Papal message seeks "global authority" for economy

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Originally Posted by estesbob View Post
So the Pope was fooled?
Hmm. No, I don't think you can fool Pope Benedict XVI.
  #50  
Old Jul 14, '09, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheNewJew View Post
I keep wondering what the meaning of the phrase "political authoriy" means. On the world stage it sounds like the US dominated UN, although with the Chinese communists getting a bit tired of loaning the United States Government more and more money to give to it's wealthy bankers who then stick it into offshore, tax-free bank accounts instead of spending it in ways to hire more US citizens into businesses that got loans from those bankers, WHEN will Buddhist China replace the US as controlling force behind the UN?

What kind of "political" authority is the Pope talking about? Is it the kind that could then be subverted to serve the interests of, let's say, various major world religious leaders? Most likely either Buddhist, Muslim, or even Catholic?? All of these organizations have a long history of using state power to enforce their attempts at dominion through dogma. Even Protestants had some history of this, mostly in Europe after the beginning of the various inquisitions, etc. and in response to them.

I think that, if religious leaders want to "bring others into the fold," so to speak, that they do it the old fashioned way: one free-choice human heart at a time. John, the Revelator seems to indicate that the whole world will, at a time when the wealthy no longer hide their selfish evil hearts of stone, and come out of the closets, so to speak, causing governments to lie to their own decent people about why their sons and daughters should go to war and die and kill (such as what happened during the last, the Bush, administration with Iraq), then I think that the safest way is NOT for some easily manipulated world "political authority" (ie, world government...), but for a better informed, politically independent public in all countries.

Such informed independence fosters democracy, political awareness, better education of adults and children, and political decisions based on better moral bases because, in general, individuals and small groups can give weight to laws and ordinancs that respect the dignity and rights of minorities, instead of a massive collective decisionmaking process that benefits only those who go along with whatever the "authority" tells them to.
As Catholic President of the United States, John F. Kennedy said, not long before those on the "right" hired mafia/CIA thugs to publicly murder him, "What good is it to fight against those who would take our freedoms away, if by so fighting those forces, we give up the very freedoms we say we cherish to some national security state or government in the effort?"

President Kennedy spoke out against "secrecy and secret oaths and secret socieities." They were, in the final analysis, the very forces who, when he tried to limit their expanding power in collaboration with large US oil and weapons manufacturing companies, and his brother, as Attorney-General, had investigated the criminal malfeasance and even Texas murders for political gain, Vice-President, Lyndon B. Johnson, by threatening Johnson with not only political undoing, but prison, that the Military-Congressional-Industrial Complex (Eisenhower, Jan. 17, 1961), had LBJ just where they needed him. That was when they went through Lee Oswald's CIA/FBI connections in New Orleans, LA., and got him the job at the Texas School Book Depository to supposedly infiltrate the actual group of CIA/Mafia assassins (which documents show he did) to stop the plot, and the CIA and FBI instead set him up to take the fall for what THEY did to JFK.

Though I may not have agreed with his religious beliefs, I did like him as President. He stood firmly for the principles he believed in. He was brave. Secrecy, within the ranks of his own administration knew about, but did nothing to stop the plot. He was fighting for more diversity. Not less, as is now being suggested with this "world political authority."

Obama needs to have done far more than just to have taken a motorcade right, with Ted Kennedy in tow, through Dealey Plaza past the grassy knoll from which two shots were fired in addition to those from the Book Depository and Daltex buildings. He did that for political gain. He now needs to go back and at least try to act like the man whose death there made the grassy knoll and Dealey Plaza famous.

Kennedy initiated the return to American money, not the printed in England money of the Federal Reserve. The "Fed" is the main reason for all the borrowing and giving of hundreds of billions of US dollars to rich bankers and Wall Street brokerages who caused the current economic mayhem in the first place.
After a quick read, I would say this is a quality post.
  #51  
Old Jul 14, '09, 6:29 pm
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheNewJew View Post
What kind of "political" authority is the Pope talking about?
Perhaps the authority based in "Love (Charity) in Truth? The transcendent principles that the Catholic Church has the "authority" of Christ to present to the world. The world, and even Kennedy (both of them, based on their actions, i.e. affairs, support for abortion) needs help in doing this, by grace, from God. Separating ourselves from that grace through the reliance of ones own authority (also realized on a group scale, congress enacting abortion laws, laws based on preference, Dred Scott, in opposition to the principles of natural law) is what leads to man as the authority in place of the absolutes of morality. Moral principles being absolute in ones life makes ones own ego, ones selfishness, or even ones anger secondary to a higher authority, God, and leads to the others good as desirable, sharing, and a more peaceful world. This is the dream far beyond the ability of mere human ability and requires transcendent authority, the authority behind the Shema: Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD: and thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thine heart. This should be what is behind "World Political Authority". The pope has no authority to call for any temporal, worldly power.
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  #52  
Old Jul 14, '09, 6:39 pm
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

The people who want to believe that the pope is calling for a one world order are none other than Alex Jones listeners. Alex Jones from prisonplanet.com is always ready to jump on the Vatican with his fundamentalists views and always ignores the obvious in order to sell yet another DVD.
If you don't know who he is, get familiar with him and you'll catch him in lie after lie within weeks. He is a one world order nut who spreads half-truths about the pope at times and I've been banned from his forums several times for calling him out on it. Some say that's like a badge of honor..lol.

Peace.
  #53  
Old Jul 14, '09, 7:39 pm
Cheerleader Cheerleader is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

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Originally Posted by elijio View Post
The people who want to believe that the pope is calling for a one world order are none other than Alex Jones listeners. Alex Jones from prisonplanet.com is always ready to jump on the Vatican with his fundamentalists views and always ignores the obvious in order to sell yet another DVD.
If you don't know who he is, get familiar with him and you'll catch him in lie after lie within weeks. He is a one world order nut who spreads half-truths about the pope at times and I've been banned from his forums several times for calling him out on it. Some say that's like a badge of honor..lol.

Peace.
DUH!!! The Pope did call for a one world global authority in his own words, in his own encyclical. Alex Jones didn't say it---the Pope did! What is your problem? You're the one spreading half-truths. Those with ears shall hear.
  #54  
Old Jul 14, '09, 7:48 pm
RonTheNewJew RonTheNewJew is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

I think that what we have in the pope's discussion about world economics and how to control greed (and that, is by the way, what he is talking about) is a conceptual problem. I agree that no religious leader should EVER accue to himself what belongs only to God: the running of human economic affiars and other civil matters. His is not to come up with answers to these problems. His is to simply do as he did in those parts of his "encyclicle" to explain where and how he sees the economic situation having come to where it is now.

That is all. The solutions to these problems is not a religious one. May not even be a moral one, per se. It is one that can be explained by the word, GREED. The real enemy is not all the little regigious people who, as Bill Clinton once kept saying, "work hard every day and play by the rules,"it is those who are relatively few in number, but who are dishonest and use their power and position to rip off the middle class and the poor."

The problem for religion when it enters civil and, yes, moral behavior is that organized religion is meant only to influence people through doctrinal understanding and interpretation. What free citizens can do is decide for themselves, and in their political collectives how to deal with problems at a very local level. That can be initiated by people of faith and/or just people, in their communities, counties and states, and nations. The real solutions do NOT come from the top DOWN. They come from the bottom UP. Clinton, regardless of your thoughts about his personal life, had economics as good as it can get!

He saw, and to his credit, fought off all the Republican challenges to his economic proposals, that if a mere $35 Billion is spent on just one thing: public works projects that put hundreds of thousands of unemployed people back to work, spending money in local economies which, then, put many more people back to work, THAT was the way to solve the economc problems, along with signficiant raises in the Minimum Wage. Those were the two key items of his agenda that massively turned the first Bush economic drizzle into the largest Federal surploses in the history of this republic and this world. The pope had nothing to do with it then, and frankly, still doesn't.

To suggest more centralization of economic control, puts world economics into an even greater bin of danger. The pope's entire premise is backward. Churches often do well with greater centralization of doctrinal and other forms of central control. Free economics, on the other hand, cannot thrive for any length of time controlled by a massive central government bureaucracy. We see what has happened with economic centralization here in America. We are a prime example of having already tried what the pope suggests.

We dare not travel down that pathway again. We need not leave aside the social programs such as Social Security and similar programs. We need them as buffers to keep the elderly and handicapped in their own homes and destitute poor people fed. But further centralization would not work!
  #55  
Old Jul 14, '09, 8:06 pm
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

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DUH!!! The Pope did call for a one world global authority in his own words, in his own encyclical.
No, he did not. What he said was "there is urgent need of a true world political authority".

This is not "calling for a one world order " nor anything remotely like it. In fact he said that globalization was neither good or bad, but only a reality. If you think "his own words" call for a one world global authority, then search for this in the encyclical. You may learn what he was really saying.
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  #56  
Old Jul 14, '09, 11:56 pm
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

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Originally Posted by RonTheNewJew View Post
The real solutions do NOT come from the top DOWN. They come from the bottom UP.
They come from the inside, out. From the heart, the center of our being. Greed is not an autonomous entity, separate from the person who is greedy. Institutions do not exist outside of people and politics is not the savior of humanity. The pope says as much in the encyclical:
Quote:
Every Christian is called to practise this charity, in a manner corresponding to his vocation and according to the degree of influence he wields in the pólis. This is the institutional path — we might also call it the political path — of charity, no less excellent and effective than the kind of charity which encounters the neighbour directly, outside the institutional mediation of the pólis. When animated by charity, commitment to the common good has greater worth than a merely secular and political stand would have. Like all commitment to justice, it has a place within the testimony of divine charity that paves the way for eternity through temporal action. Man's earthly activity, when inspired and sustained by charity, contributes to the building of the universal city of God, which is the goal of the history of the human family. In an increasingly globalized society, the common good and the effort to obtain it cannot fail to assume the dimensions of the whole human family, that is to say, the community of peoples and nations, in such a way as to shape the earthly city in unity and peace, rendering it to some degree an anticipation and a prefiguration of the undivided city of God.

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Originally Posted by RonTheNewJew View Post
The problem for religion when it enters civil and, yes, moral behavior is that organized religion is meant only to influence people through doctrinal understanding and interpretation.
The Grace of God is the power of the soul to perform act of heroic virtue. This has been proven in 2000 years of organized religion, Catholicism. Not to mention Moses and Elijah too. Those who have ears, let them hear.
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  #57  
Old Jul 15, '09, 2:27 am
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

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No, he did not. What he said was "there is urgent need of a true world political authority".

This is not "calling for a one world order " nor anything remotely like it. In fact he said that globalization was neither good or bad, but only a reality. If you think "his own words" call for a one world global authority, then search for this in the encyclical. You may learn what he was really saying.
Okay........"there is urgent need of a true world political authority".
Now....how is this not an endorsement of world government? Is this what you want, too. If it is then you can kiss the blessings of liberty good-bye.

I can't express enough how upset I am. There have been good Popes and bad Popes. This Pope is leading us down the wrong path, and it scares me. Pope John Paul II also acted as a geo-politician and called for the same. I am grateful though that Pope Benedict declared this year the Year of the Priest. Thank God for the good priests working on the front lines.
  #58  
Old Jul 15, '09, 4:57 am
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Lightbulb Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

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Okay........"there is urgent need of a true world political authority".
Now....how is this not an endorsement of world government? Is this what you want, too. If it is then you can kiss the blessings of liberty good-bye.

I can't express enough how upset I am. There have been good Popes and bad Popes. This Pope is leading us down the wrong path, and it scares me. Pope John Paul II also acted as a geo-politician and called for the same. I am grateful though that Pope Benedict declared this year the Year of the Priest. Thank God for the good priests working on the front lines.
I disagree with your conclusion.

I think that far too many people have been influenced by a kind of paranoia or conspiracy theory thinking to think outside the box of their own patriotism, nationalism, or religious end time misinterpretation of the times and seasons.

A world authority that was guided by the moral principles that His Holiness has laid out would actually be a blessed event in the history of mankind. It would be the most just and benevolent system we have ever seen this side of the Kingdom of Heaven.

I think His Holiness makes this plain in the very opening paragraph of this encyclical when he says:
Quote:
1. Charity in truth, to which Jesus Christ bore witness by his earthly life and especially by his death and resurrection, is the principal driving force behind the authentic development of every person and of all humanity. Love — caritas — is an extraordinary force which leads people to opt for courageous and generous engagement in the field of justice and peace. It is a force that has its origin in God, Eternal Love and Absolute Truth. Each person finds his good by adherence to God's plan for him, in order to realize it fully: in this plan, he finds his truth, and through adherence to this truth he becomes free (cf. Jn 8:22). To defend the truth, to articulate it with humility and conviction, and to bear witness to it in life are therefore exacting and indispensable forms of charity. Charity, in fact, “rejoices in the truth” (1 Cor 13:6). All people feel the interior impulse to love authentically: love and truth never abandon them completely, because these are the vocation planted by God in the heart and mind of every human person. The search for love and truth is purified and liberated by Jesus Christ from the impoverishment that our humanity brings to it, and he reveals to us in all its fullness the initiative of love and the plan for true life that God has prepared for us. In Christ, charity in truth becomes the Face of his Person, a vocation for us to love our brothers and sisters in the truth of his plan. Indeed, he himself is the Truth (cf. Jn 14:6).
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  #59  
Old Jul 15, '09, 5:13 am
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

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No, he did not. What he said was "there is urgent need of a true world political authority".

This is not "calling for a one world order " nor anything remotely like it. In fact he said that globalization was neither good or bad, but only a reality. If you think "his own words" call for a one world global authority, then search for this in the encyclical. You may learn what he was really saying.
An excellent point my friend!

It's very important to read what is in this letter objectively and not so much through the lenses of all the negative utopia books and thinking that is so prevalent today.

The fact that mankind has a long history of messing up even a 2 car funeral doesn't mean that we should cease thinking and dreaming about a more just and benevolent world and the working to effect that kind of system in the world around us.

Stop and consider that this Pontiff has already seen what an evil regime can do up close and personal, so he is not some silly dreamer or blind advocate of a world government, but here is laying out some concepts upon which the best possible human government could come into being.

I think it is imperative that we read what is objectively here in this document, and not project the real political paranoia and distrust that colors even my own thinking about rulers today.
Quote:
2. Charity is at the heart of the Church's social doctrine. Every responsibility and every commitment spelt out by that doctrine is derived from charity which, according to the teaching of Jesus, is the synthesis of the entire Law (cf. Mt 22:36- 40). It gives real substance to the personal relationship with God and with neighbour; it is the principle not only of micro-relationships (with friends, with family members or within small groups) but also of macro-relationships (social, economic and political ones). For the Church, instructed by the Gospel, charity is everything because, as Saint John teaches (cf. 1 Jn 4:8, 16) and as I recalled in my first Encyclical Letter, “God is love” (Deus Caritas Est): everything has its origin in God's love, everything is shaped by it, everything is directed towards it. Love is God's greatest gift to humanity, it is his promise and our hope.

I am aware of the ways in which charity has been and continues to be misconstrued and emptied of meaning, with the consequent risk of being misinterpreted, detached from ethical living and, in any event, undervalued. In the social, juridical, cultural, political and economic fields — the contexts, in other words, that are most exposed to this danger — it is easily dismissed as irrelevant for interpreting and giving direction to moral responsibility. Hence the need to link charity with truth not only in the sequence, pointed out by Saint Paul, of veritas in caritate (Eph 4:15), but also in the inverse and complementary sequence of caritas in veritate. Truth needs to be sought, found and expressed within the “economy” of charity, but charity in its turn needs to be understood, confirmed and practised in the light of truth. In this way, not only do we do a service to charity enlightened by truth, but we also help give credibility to truth, demonstrating its persuasive and authenticating power in the practical setting of social living. This is a matter of no small account today, in a social and cultural context which relativizes truth, often paying little heed to it and showing increasing reluctance to acknowledge its existence.
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  #60  
Old Jul 15, '09, 5:36 am
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

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Okay........"there is urgent need of a true world political authority".
Now....how is this not an endorsement of world government? Is this what you want, too. If it is then you can kiss the blessings of liberty good-bye.
Did you even read the whole document? If you did, how can you ask this question? FYI - we already have a world political authority of sorts in INTERPOL.
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