Catholic FAQ


Help support Catholic Answers!

Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #46  
Old Aug 24, '09, 10:54 am
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 9,489
Religion: Melkite (Melkite Catholic)
Post Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottle of Geer View Post
## Not according to JP2 - he, not the OP, called them the "Church's other lung". That sort of idiocy is of the Vatican's making - no one else's, & certainly not the OP's.

From Redemptoris Mater 34:
  • 34. Such a wealth of praise, built up by the different forms of the Church's great tradition, could help us to hasten the day when the Church can begin once more to breathe fully with her "two lungs," the East and the West. As I have often said, this is more than ever necessary today. It would be an effective aid in furthering the progress of the dialogue already taking place between the Catholic Church and the Churches and Ecclesial Communities of the West.86 It would also be the way for the pilgrim Church to sing and to live more perfectly her "Magnificat."
Aidan Nichols OP speaks to the FiF Assembly 2002

The other lung

This, I might add, should be on the understanding that the Church of Peter and Paul does not wish the West to breathe without the East, without that 'other lung' in the metaphor of the Dominican ecclesiologist Yves Congar. 'The other lung' is a phrase which the present Holy Father has often repeated, and indeed turned into action, not least in promulgating the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church much of which, as has been said, reads as if written in Constantinople. With this other Anglicanism the ecumenical road is, by any reasonable assessment, shorter and more secure.

Hard decisions lie ahead of you. The Rome that sent Augustine, Hadrian and Theodore, an Italian, an African and a Greek, to England still shows, despite or because of cosmopolitanism, a motherly solicitude for you. But behind a Church-mother there stands, even more importantly, the Mother of the Church.
I would say two things:

1. If you interpret JPII's words to mean that the Orthodox are one "lung" of the Church, than that's fine but you should be aware not all Catholics interpret them that way. For example, I very seriously doubt that such an interpretation would be supported by Fr. Ray Ryland, who is famous for his crusade against Eastern Orthodoxy.

2. If JPII meant that the Orthodox are one "lung" of the Church, why didn't he ever come right out and say "the Orthodox are one lung of the Church"?
__________________
- Peter Jericho

"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement
  #47  
Old Aug 24, '09, 1:38 pm
Ceil-1's Avatar
Ceil-1 Ceil-1 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2006
Posts: 1,473
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

I take offense at the poster referring to John Paul II's statement as "idiocy".

Frankly, I'm fed up with this detraction and derision toward certain priests and bishops because certain types of people have this need to spread negative propaganda about Vatican II around so badly, they are willing to cause scandal and commit sin.

If one cannot trust the original founders of the Church to get it right, then how could anyone else possibly be trusted? If the Church didn't get it right, it's all a sham.
  #48  
Old Aug 24, '09, 2:34 pm
Janet1983's Avatar
Janet1983 Janet1983 is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Posts: 1,923
Religion: Judaism
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Pick View Post
Can you tell us why you left
I could, but I don't have the time right now to go back through my posts and find it real quick... I've given my account already a few times...
__________________
Janet - wife and mother

A bird that you set free may be caught again, but a word that escapes your lips will not return.
  #49  
Old Aug 24, '09, 5:41 pm
Gottle of Geer Gottle of Geer is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 12, 2004
Posts: 11,638
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Religio71 View Post
Weren't you the one that said this:
## I did. But what X thinks is of no relevance to what the Pope or Magisterium or whatever teaches or claims to teach. Gunning for - or for that matter saying nice things about - a poster does nothing to invalidate what the poster says or to support it. If the Popes falsify Catholic doctrine, then so be it: what others may think of their doing so, if the Popes do so, does not change the act of falsification. Whether a poster welcomes it or not, does not change it. What matters is not the attitudes of posters, but whether the falsification is real or not.
Quote:
Anyway, the Orthodox Church is still seen as schismatic, and this is clear for the simple fact that they do not accept the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
## The Pope seems not to agree with you.
Quote:
The Church currently breathes with both lungs; We have the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Catholic churches. Orthodoxy is the other lung when they are in union with us. We already have Eastern Catholics. The hope is that the rest of Orthodoxy will follow.
## Which is it then ? You're contradicting yourself. As well as Paul VI & JP2 - Paul VI is the one who claimed the Orthodox are a sister-Church & JP2 made this "other lung" stuff his own. These are your Popes; you are responsible for what they say because that Catholic stuff is what you claim to believe. You can't pick and choose the bits you like - your religion does not give you that liberty or right. So what you have to is to harmonise all these conflicts - that should be easy enough, because the Roman Pope to whom you are supposedly subject claims infallibility, as does the CC, as do its Ecummenical Councils. These positions are of your religion's making, so you have to take responsibility for them.

Please quote one single Vatican document since 1964 in which the Orthodox are referred to as "schismatic". I very much doubt that you will be able to. But if you can't - why should I believe that the Vatican does regard them as schismatic ? CAF members are not the Vatican or the bishops (including or the Pope) - so what gives anyone on CAF the right to contradict Vatican documents, Papal or otherwise ? What you may find is that the word "separated" is used of those Christians who are not Protestant or Papal - but even if it is used, that is a far milder term than "schismatic".
  #50  
Old Aug 24, '09, 5:45 pm
Gottle of Geer Gottle of Geer is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 12, 2004
Posts: 11,638
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
Uh, GOG, I suppose it hasn't occured to you that your posted remarks were probably speaking of the Eastern CATHOLIC Churches - the leaders of which haven't always been palsy-walsy with the Popes and their brothers of the Latin 'lung', and have often felt (and rightly so) somewhat overlooked and ignored by Rome?
## It did - so I had a look round. The meaning of the phrase "the other lung" seems either to include, or at least not be limited to, the Eastern Catholic Churches. That is not a problem. The inclusion of the Orthodox is a massive problem.

Thank you for the suggestion though.
  #51  
Old Aug 24, '09, 5:50 pm
Gottle of Geer Gottle of Geer is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 12, 2004
Posts: 11,638
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Pick View Post
The Cathloic Church has many Mass you can always find the time to get to mass and it is not a mortal sin to miss a weekly mass,Dont know where you got that
## It is a mortal sin not to attend Mass if there is no sufficient reason for not attending. Sorry.

Looking after the sick, or being sick, are sufficient reasons not to. Not attending because one does not feel like doing so, but could do so, is an insufficient reason not to.
  #52  
Old Aug 24, '09, 7:54 pm
Reuben J's Avatar
Reuben J Reuben J is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2005
Posts: 5,710
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottle of Geer View Post
## It is a mortal sin not to attend Mass if there is no sufficient reason for not attending. Sorry.

Looking after the sick, or being sick, are sufficient reasons not to. Not attending because one does not feel like doing so, but could do so, is an insufficient reason not to.
Maybe I miss something here but let get this clear.

The Holy Mass is said everyday. Catholics are expected to attend masses as often as they reasonably can. However, missing daily mass in NOT a sin. Missing masses on Sundays and Days of Obligation is without any good reason.

What are sufficient reasons for one to miss a mass? Again this is a matter of the heart. If you love the Eucharist so much, lots of things can be done and arranged so that it will be possible for one to attend it. But if you truly can't, God will understand. There is thing you can do like saying personal prayer and the likes and rever the moment knowing that your fellow Christians are celebrating the Lord's supper in the church.

If it is merely to fullfil one's obligation without the heart for it, attending masses on Sundays will not achieve the full potential that the celebration of the Holy Eucharist will do to the person.

God bless.
__________________

Lord, by your cross and resurrection
you have set us free.
You are the Savior of the world.


Life begins at conception not implantation.
  #53  
Old Aug 24, '09, 8:10 pm
Religio71 Religio71 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2009
Posts: 929
Religion: former LDS, currently Catholic
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottle of Geer View Post
## I did. But what X thinks is of no relevance to what the Pope or Magisterium or whatever teaches or claims to teach. Gunning for - or for that matter saying nice things about - a poster does nothing to invalidate what the poster says or to support it. If the Popes falsify Catholic doctrine, then so be it: what others may think of their doing so, if the Popes do so, does not change the act of falsification. Whether a poster welcomes it or not, does not change it. What matters is not the attitudes of posters, but whether the falsification is real or not.
## The Pope seems not to agree with you.
## Which is it then ? You're contradicting yourself. As well as Paul VI & JP2 - Paul VI is the one who claimed the Orthodox are a sister-Church & JP2 made this "other lung" stuff his own. These are your Popes; you are responsible for what they say because that Catholic stuff is what you claim to believe. You can't pick and choose the bits you like - your religion does not give you that liberty or right. So what you have to is to harmonise all these conflicts - that should be easy enough, because the Roman Pope to whom you are supposedly subject claims infallibility, as does the CC, as do its Ecummenical Councils. These positions are of your religion's making, so you have to take responsibility for them.

Please quote one single Vatican document since 1964 in which the Orthodox are referred to as "schismatic". I very much doubt that you will be able to. But if you can't - why should I believe that the Vatican does regard them as schismatic ? CAF members are not the Vatican or the bishops (including or the Pope) - so what gives anyone on CAF the right to contradict Vatican documents, Papal or otherwise ? What you may find is that the word "separated" is used of those Christians who are not Protestant or Papal - but even if it is used, that is a far milder term than "schismatic".

So wait, which is it, sister Church, or other Lung???

The Orthodox Church is a sister Church of the Catholic Church. It has valid sacraments, valid priesthood, valid apostolic succession, etc. according to the Catholic Church. So do other schismatic groups. The point is that the "other lung" is not the Orthodox Church, since they are not in full communion with us (try reading the basic Catechism, it's right in there). The other lung includes the various Eastern Catholic churches.

Please tell me what the difference is between "separated" and "schismatic". So the 1054 schism wasn't really a...schism???

I will wait for you to provide evidence that the Orthodox Church is in full communion with the Catholic Church, or where there is a contridiction here. Otherwise, they are in schism. No Pope has said otherwise, and being a sister Church doesn't mean being in full communion. The Schism of 1054 has not been healed, despite attempts throughout history. So I suggest you review history.

Can anyone tell me how it is logical to think that the Orthodox Church is not in schism when they do not accept the authority of the Bishop of Rome?

From the Catechism:

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
  #54  
Old Aug 24, '09, 8:11 pm
Religio71 Religio71 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2009
Posts: 929
Religion: former LDS, currently Catholic
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

I think I'll take the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia over Gottle's

"The technical name for the body of Christians who use the Byzantine Rite in various languages and are in union with the Patriarch of Constantinople but in schism with the Pope of Rome. The epithet Orthodox (orthodoxos), meaning "right believer", is, naturally, claimed by people of every religion. It is almost exactly a Greek form of the official title of the chief enemies of the Greeks, i.e. the Moslems (mu'min, fidelis). The Monophysite Armenians called themselves ughapar, meaning exactly the same thing."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11329a.htm
  #55  
Old Aug 24, '09, 8:22 pm
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 9,489
Religion: Melkite (Melkite Catholic)
Post Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottle of Geer View Post
## It is a mortal sin not to attend Mass if there is no sufficient reason for not attending. Sorry.
Basically I agree with you, but again I want to point out that there is a difference between grave matter and mortal sin.
__________________
- Peter Jericho

"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement
  #56  
Old Aug 25, '09, 4:08 am
Javl Javl is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2,123
Religion: Roman Catholic, traditionalist, faithful to the Magisterium
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
GottleofGeer:
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
Schism with the CC is the refusal to accept the authority of both the Pope and Magisterium. Refusing the Pope but adhering to the Magisterium is no schism
but only disobedience.


PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
  #57  
Old Aug 25, '09, 5:54 am
Peter J's Avatar
Peter J Peter J is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2008
Posts: 9,489
Religion: Melkite (Melkite Catholic)
Post Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javl View Post
Schism with the CC is the refusal to accept the authority of both the Pope and Magisterium. Refusing the Pope but adhering to the Magisterium is no schism
but only disobedience.


PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
That's not what the CCC says (see Gottle's post).
__________________
- Peter Jericho

"Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other"
- the Balamand Statement
  #58  
Old Aug 26, '09, 4:38 am
Javl Javl is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: August 21, 2009
Posts: 2,123
Religion: Roman Catholic, traditionalist, faithful to the Magisterium
Default Re: Taking risks by rejecting the CC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
That's not what the CCC says (see Gottle's post).
Refusal of submission to the Pope in matters of faith and/or morals is considered schism.
Refusal of the Pope in other matters is not schism but only disobedience. Refusal of the Pope in personal matters may or may not be disobedience. I should have defined my statement. Sorry.


PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions

Bookmarks

Tags
catholic, catholic church, convert, protestant, risk

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8033Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: KrazyKat
4820CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: Vim71
4288Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: James_OPL
4027OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: fencersmother
3810SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3367Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: James_OPL
3184Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: libralion
3145Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
2960For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: KrazyKat
2686Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: James_OPL



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 9:27 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.