Ethics of Fur

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by vz71

However, if the cost is reduced to such a degree that everyone can have one, there is no cause for vanity.

The exclusive club that is fur ownership is gone in favor of the commonplace.

And I may then replace all of my winter coats with the cheaper fur ones.

I guess that you don't exactly get "vanity." Flaunting your wealth and adorning yourself with luxury items can be vanity, as can killing an animal because you think that you would look better in his fur than he does. The price of the item may factor into the equation, yes--but stealing and item and getting it for free, and wearing it to adorn oneself is also about vanity (in addition to stealing.)

[4elise]

Originally Posted by PeterMuz

Do you consider it a sin to eat an animal then? Didn't God all throughout the Bible command people to sacrifice animals, which then meant to eat the animal?

I do not believe it is a sin for you to eat meat.

Yes, in the old testament there were sacrifices of animals, and Christ became our pascal lamb, sacrificed for our sins, which we now receive in the Eucharist,

I do not eat meat, poultry, dairy, eggs, fish because I learned about the impact of factory farming on animals, the environment, and the communities impacted by that pollution, and the issues of resource allocation. I do not need meat, poultry, dairy, eggs, or fish so the suffering of these animals is unnecessary for me to sustain my life, by removing this from my diet I am not contributing to the environmental damage CAFO's cause, and trying to use more my share of resources.

I also know that many good people of faith do not make this same connection for many reasons - perhaps they don't know, or because they have eaten one way their entire life and do not believe there is a need to change, some people have written in these forums because the Church doesn't say they can't they do.... I am not judging anyone else.

I have made this connection BECAUSE of my faith, and therefore I believe I have to make this change. However, as I've explained on other threads - in my work I have to travel internationally - when someone has prepared chicken soup, or offers me a small piece of dried fish I eat it because to not do so would be an insult to their hospitality, not that it matters in this circumstance, but I can also be quite sure that that chicken was walking around that morning and the fish did not come from a huge commercial fishing outfit.

Blessings,

[4elise]

Originally Posted by vz71

I have no intention of doing so.

Jesus' actions and religious upbringing are a matter of record.
As is also the dietary rules he followed, and the passover feasts he attended.

I believe what is being asked is did he also LIVE as a devote Jew - he was scolded by the devote Jews for healing on the Sabbath, for allowing his disciples to gather wheat...

There is a very interesting article regarding the passover as many of us (myself included) have considered that the Last Supper was celebrated on the last day of Passover --- In fact there was most likely no lamb present at that meal.... it would have been reserved for the final day... the chief priests were trying to get the 'deed done' before the last day because it was said that there would be more of an uprising from the people had they tried that: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be...domini_en.html

This is taken from our Catholic Vegetarian and Vegan Group - posted by the Whim - more of a biblical scholar than I!

"Matthew says it was "the first of Unleavened Bread." Mark says it was "the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover"; Luke states it was "the day of Unleavened Bread when the Passover must be killed."

The Bible tells us in Exodus 12:6 that the Passover lambs were to be killed "between the evenings" on the Nisan 14. The Jews have traditionally interpreted "between the evenings" to mean "in the afternoon."

The Jews at the time of Christ killed the Passover lambs on the afternoon of Nisan 14. In The Wars of the Jews, Josephus records that in the first century, the Passover lambs were slaughtered "from the ninth hour till the eleventh" (bk. 6, ch. 9, sec. 3), which corresponds to our 3:00-5:00 p.m.

Obviously, the day Matthew and Mark call the "first day of Unleavened Bread" is the same day that John calls the "the Preparation Day of the Passover." The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says that the 14th of Nisan was "called until the evening the preparation for the Passover" (p. 411). As shown below, all three Synoptic Gospels confirm that Yeshua was crucified on the "Preparation Day," Nisan 14.
MATTHEW 27:62
MARK 15:42
LUKE 23:54

Going back to the Synoptic accounts of the meal, Matthew and Mark show that the disciples came to Yeshua just as the Preparation Day (Nisan 14) was beginning, which would have been at sunset. They asked him where he wanted them to prepare to eat the Passover meal, which would occur the next night (see John 18:28 above)."


There's but one scriptural difficulty, the solution of which is rendered:
"LUKE 22:15 "And He said to them: 'I have longingly desired [epithumia epethumesa] to eat this Passover with you before My suffering; 16 however, I tell you that I shall not eat of it, until it can be administered in the Kingdom of God.'" (The Holy Bible in Modern English)"

[fultonfish]

Jesus lived for 33 years and participated in 33 passover meals. Meat was served.

He also barbecued fish for this friends.

And don't forget the miracle of the loaves and FISHES.

Peter caught so many fish that the nets broke.

Let's not get carried away.

WWJE?

If Jesus and Mary and Joseph were around today, they would drive their pickup truck to Ralphs and buy whatever was on sale. I doubt they would drive a hundred extra miles to find organically raised beef/lamb/goat or organically grown veggies.

[4elise]

Originally Posted by fultonfish

Jesus lived for 33 years and participated in 33 passover meals. Meat was served.

He also barbecued fish for this friends.

And don't forget the miracle of the loaves and FISHES.

Peter caught so many fish that the nets broke.

Let's not get carried away.

WWJE?

If Jesus and Mary and Joseph were around today, they would drive their pickup truck to Ralphs and buy whatever was on sale. I doubt they would drive a hundred extra miles to find organically raised beef/lamb/goat or organically grown veggies.

I guess we all want to make the choice that we think is the best one, then naturally, we want to think therefore that the choice we make would be the same one the Holy Family might make as well...

So I could say: I think the Holy Family, if they were living in the US in 2009, might drive their 1995 toyota turcel to the store to buy tofu and beans, grow their own vegies - and chose to be vegan given the source of most meat coming from factory farms today

But joking aside -- given the situation with CAFOs - I actually do believe that they would not partake of meat that came from that source

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by 4elise

I guess we all want to make the choice that we think is the best one, then naturally, we want to think therefore that the choice we make would be the same one the Holy Family might make as well...

So I could say: I think the Holy Family, if they were living in the US in 2009, might drive their 1995 toyota turcel to the store to buy tofu and beans, grow their own vegies - and chose to be vegan given the source of most meat coming from factory farms today

But joking aside -- given the situation with CAFOs - I actually do believe that they would not partake of meat that came from that source

I totally agree with you but I think that the Holy Family, if they were living today, would ride their bicycles and skate boards to their destinations. And if they lived in Manhattan, they would be riding the subway and footing their way to work/school. I think they would be big on public transportation and would live modestly. And they would probably grow their own vegetables. Definitely tofu and beans for dinner. (A very modest, inexpensive, healthy meal.)

[vz71]

Originally Posted by Marfran

And they would probably grow their own vegetables. Definitely tofu and beans for dinner. (A very modest, inexpensive, healthy meal.)

Let us never forget that part of the expense of an item is the time necessary to complete the task.

Even were the money involved for a home grown garden were pennies, the time necessary to care for and maintain is prohibitive to most people.

Just a caution for those that wish to believe the alternatives are 'inexpensive'.

[PeterMuz]

Originally Posted by vz71

However, if the cost is reduced to such a degree that everyone can have one, there is no cause for vanity.

The exclusive club that is fur ownership is gone in favor of the commonplace.

And I may then replace all of my winter coats with the cheaper fur ones.

Awesome, that was my point!

[PeterMuz]

Originally Posted by 4elise

I do not believe it is a sin for you to eat meat.

Yes, in the old testament there were sacrifices of animals, and Christ became our pascal lamb, sacrificed for our sins, which we now receive in the Eucharist,

I do not eat meat, poultry, dairy, eggs, fish because I learned about the impact of factory farming on animals, the environment, and the communities impacted by that pollution, and the issues of resource allocation. I do not need meat, poultry, dairy, eggs, or fish so the suffering of these animals is unnecessary for me to sustain my life, by removing this from my diet I am not contributing to the environmental damage CAFO's cause, and trying to use more my share of resources.

I also know that many good people of faith do not make this same connection for many reasons - perhaps they don't know, or because they have eaten one way their entire life and do not believe there is a need to change, some people have written in these forums because the Church doesn't say they can't they do.... I am not judging anyone else.

I have made this connection BECAUSE of my faith, and therefore I believe I have to make this change. However, as I've explained on other threads - in my work I have to travel internationally - when someone has prepared chicken soup, or offers me a small piece of dried fish I eat it because to not do so would be an insult to their hospitality, not that it matters in this circumstance, but I can also be quite sure that that chicken was walking around that morning and the fish did not come from a huge commercial fishing outfit.

Blessings,

So let me get this straight... You don't eat meat, eggs, fish, etc. because of your faith? Did you come to this faith by reading things in the Bible?

[Mary Gail 36]

Originally Posted by Marfran

I totally agree with you but I think that the Holy Family, if they were living today, would ride their bicycles and skate boards to their destinations. And if they lived in Manhattan, they would be riding the subway and footing their way to work/school. I think they would be big on public transportation and would live modestly. And they would probably grow their own vegetables. Definitely tofu and beans for dinner. (A very modest, inexpensive, healthy meal.)

I doubt St. Joseph could afford a Manhattan apartment on a carpenter's salary. And there aren't too many affordable apartments with use of the vegetable garden.

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36

I doubt St. Joseph could afford a Manhattan apartment on a carpenter's salary. And there aren't too many affordable apartments with use of the vegetable garden.

LOL Living in Manhattan you don't have the expense of a car or car insurance (that's a big cost savings!!!) and several wage earners split the rent. (Jesus would have to live frugally with several roomies.) You grow your vegetables on the roof silly!!!!!

How did we get on this weird tangent anyway?? Would Jesus even live in the USA if he lived today????

[severus68]

Originally Posted by vz71

I have no intention of doing so.

Jesus' actions and religious upbringing are a matter of record.
As is also the dietary rules he followed, and the passover feasts he attended.

Well, it is obvious you just say things without any basis and then when queried say the same things.

[athansor]

Originally Posted by PeterMuz

So let me get this straight... You don't eat meat, eggs, fish, etc. because of your faith? Did you come to this faith by reading things in the Bible?

I can't speak for 4elise here, but I would say that I also don't eat meat, etc. in part because of my faith. The Church teaches that we should treat animals with compassion, while noting that it is OK to consume animal products if necessary. So, I believe that one, animals have the capacity to suffer, two, killing animals for meat, especially as it is commonly done in modern practice, causes significant suffering, and three, that I don't have any need for any animal products to live a healthy life.

To your question, though, as a Catholic, must we document all areas of our faith by the Bible? Do we not also have the traditions, examples and writing of our Church leaders and Saints to help us grow and enhance our faith? What about our own conscience?

From the Bible, I get that God's idea of a perfect creation, life in the Garden of Eden, was meant to be a vegetarian existence. From the Church, I see that compassion for animals is a good thing. From my own conscience, I feel that not eating animal products is a better way for me to live, and has actually allowed me to grow closer to God and devote more time to other issues, like pro-life causes and working to ease poverty. It's hard to explain why, but for me the simple act of not eating meat gives me more reverence for all life and frees me up in some sense to devote more time.

[Marfran]

Originally Posted by athansor

I can't speak for 4elise here, but I would say that I also don't eat meat, etc. in part because of my faith. The Church teaches that we should treat animals with compassion, while noting that it is OK to consume animal products if necessary. So, I believe that one, animals have the capacity to suffer, two, killing animals for meat, especially as it is commonly done in modern practice, causes significant suffering, and three, that I don't have any need for any animal products to live a healthy life.

To your question, though, as a Catholic, must we document all areas of our faith by the Bible? Do we not also have the traditions, examples and writing of our Church leaders and Saints to help us grow and enhance our faith? What about our own conscience?

From the Bible, I get that God's idea of a perfect creation, life in the Garden of Eden, was meant to be a vegetarian existence. From the Church, I see that compassion for animals is a good thing. From my own conscience, I feel that not eating animal products is a better way for me to live, and has actually allowed me to grow closer to God and devote more time to other issues, like pro-life causes and working to ease poverty. It's hard to explain why, but for me the simple act of not eating meat gives me more reverence for all life and frees me up in some sense to devote more time.

Great post!!!!

[4elise]

Originally Posted by vz71

Let us never forget that part of the expense of an item is the time necessary to complete the task.

Even were the money involved for a home grown garden were pennies, the time necessary to care for and maintain is prohibitive to most people.

Just a caution for those that wish to believe the alternatives are 'inexpensive'.

I work way more than a full time job - and growing veggies is SO easy to fit into that schedule in the little back yard I have - AND it is so satisfying to grow something and feed it to my family