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  #376  
Old Oct 18, '09, 9:36 pm
RonTheNewJew RonTheNewJew is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liraco View Post
Why do you deny this? Protestant churches don't have apostolic succession, just try to trace back your priests and the lines stops very fast. Study the beginnings of protestantism and that much should be clear. Catholics can trace the popes all the way back to Peter though. It is not through leaders, it is through what is taught, and practiced just as Christ taught and practiced. He was a Torah-observant Jew.

On the claim that they teach more than the Catholic Church, how exactly is that? I really would like to know. They were to teach the people to forgive sins of those who wrong them. Those sins are also forgiven in Heaven.

The Church teaches ALL of the practices and doctrines that were entrusted to her.
Baptism, confirmation, confession, holy communion, matrimony, holy orders, and anointing of the sick. Protestants also marry, anoint the sick, have communion, baptism, consecration of the young, etc. What are "holy orders?" Protestants do not call them "sacrements," per se.

In the mass alone, with all the readings and what is said you get to hear nearly the entire Bible, both old and new testament (and the Priests homily is meant to bring further understanding to these readings). Nothing that is taught infallibly by the church contradicts scripture, and she certainly doesn't teach anything that's condemned. If you think so though, it's only because you don't understand what's really being taught.
It is the resulting practices that are most important.

Perhaps linked to "salvation only comes through the Catholic Church"? It's true, except most don't understand what it entails. Notice no one said "only Catholics will be saved" because this is false. Read what Vatican 2 has to say about this: Apparently, the person whose posting I was responding to, didn't know about Vatican 11.

Jesus said to the woman at the well, "Salvation comes through the Jews."

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine... Jesus said, "Many will say in that day, we have done many wonders and preached and taught and healed the sick and have done all these things in thy Name. I will say unto them, depart from me you lawbreakers. I never knew you." Revelation 2, vs. 9 and 3, vss. 9-14, John quotes Jesus as saying that those who hold fast what He taught the disciples/apostles were not like those who "are not true Jews." The word, "Jew" merely means "one who praises God."
[/indent]Please read here for further clarification:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

Remember this though:[indent][i]They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ.. The RCC didn't exist when Christ established His Church.


They're incomplete precisely because these churches lack the fullness of truth. Like the missing sacraments, invalid orders, no real presence, etc. Christ said, "Do this in REMEMBRANCE of Me." We do not consume His flesh, however we might try to characterize it.

Many non-catholics are conditioned through no fault of their own against Catholics with falsehoods, and while nothing would make us happier than to see them join the Church, we still trust God to save those who didn't and don't presume anyone to be lost.

You're right in the final judgment it'll be you and God alone, but if you choose to knowingly turn away from the Truth then that's turning away from Him. As I said, people are taught so many falsities that if what they think they're rejecting is something abhorrent then that's actually something good (we wouldn't want them accepting something horrible).


Not sure what you mean by oppression I mean the inquisition, the middle ages persecution of especially the first Baptists, and protestants generally. That is history.


Don't judge the medicine by those who refuse to take it but by those who do.
Hi Liraco,
You say that the Church teaches all the practices and doctrines that were passed on to her. Now, just because you say to me that the RCC was that Church, and that the first pope was Peter, doesn't make it so.
Early Church historians, people like Josephus and Eusebius, etc. all have said that the early Christian Church, not called "Catholic" or "Roman" until the 5th and 6th centuries after Pentecost (still then called, in Hebrew, :"Shavuot,") worshipped in the synagogues with the non-Christian Jews and on the same days and in many of the same ways other than animal sacrifices and the various meat and grain offerings.

Up to the time of Constantine, there were three patriarchates, two besides that located in Rome. In the second century AD, the Bishop of Rome was one of three such Bishops.

The same early Church historians also said that the religious practices of the early Church, in terms of holy days of convocation and the Shabbat (Sabbaton, in Greek), observed exactly the same days as did the Jews in whose bosom the early Church was given birth. They based these practices on the words of Jesus, Himself in Matthew 23.
They were nowhere, that early, called "Catholic."
The reason? Because He, as part of the Godhead, had written the Ten Commandments.

Christ's whole purpose was to provide the effectual sacrifice that would so move us and help us see why we need to obey His "Perpetual Covenant" (the one He gave Moses at the mountain in Horeb. We are, though Christ, grafted in. Not the other way around.

In the Messiah's Love, shalom.
  #377  
Old Oct 19, '09, 12:50 am
CaterinaTherese CaterinaTherese is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

I think one of pnewton's points bears repeating. "Since the document directly and unequivocally states the principle of subsidiarity and local government, it is in an injustice to the Holy Father of saying he supports something that he directly said he did not believe in."

Did anyone read this article? It says:

"However, in paragraph 41, the Holy Father specifically differentiates his concept of a world political authority from that of a one-world government. "We must," he says "promote a dispersed political authority."

and

"Later in the encyclical (57) he speaks of the opposite concept to one- world government -subsidiarity (the principle of Catholic social teaching which states that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority) - as being essential. "In order not to produce a dangerous universal power of a tyrannical nature, the governance of globalization must be marked by subsidiarity," says the Pope."

In light of all of this context, cherry-picking the "true political authority" quote would be sort of like reading a defense of marriage blog written by a woman, and cherry-picking something like "I went to the movies with my girlfriend" to mean that the female blogger was romantically dating another woman, when she simply meant a "girlfriend" in the sense of a good female friend.

Also, regarding the Pope and the Muslim world, I think a more likely interpretation of his behavior would be similar to Blessed Teresa of Calcutta. She came under attack for supposedly being a Universalist Unitarian too, because she was quoted as saying, "I believe a Hindu should be a good Hindu, a Muslim should be a good Muslim." However, this was also taken out of context. In this interview she says:

"Time: And they should love Jesus too?

Mother Teresa: Naturally, if they want peace, if they want joy, let them find Jesus. If people become better Hindus, better Moslems, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there. They come closer and closer to God. When they come closer, they have to choose."

They have to choose Jesus. I think perhaps that is also why Pope Benedict XVI isn't being as direct and forceful with Muslims as he could be. He wants them to try to draw closer to God, because if they open themselves up to grace, God can steer their hearts toward Jesus.

That's one way to look at it anyway. I'm not trying to come off as opinionated or anything, those are just some ideas that I have.

God Bless us all
  #378  
Old Oct 19, '09, 6:59 am
RonTheNewJew RonTheNewJew is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

As Protestants, we generally view political statements made by religious leaders, obviously to influence their members and how they vote in civil elections, with considerable disdain and mistrust. I'm aware of the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons of the world, and the negative effect these two hypocrits have had on the cause of separation of church and state and religious freedom, itself. The movements that those two, and others, have had on Protestant Christianity, have declined in the past 8 or 9 years.

We believe that spiritual people who gained their moral understanding and behavior from their reading and understanding of the entire Bible, including the Torah (the rules of l ife based on the teachings, not of Moses, but given to Moses by God, the Son whose finger Moses saw write the words of the Perpetual Covenant on the tablets of stone (No man has seen God, the Father), should use the moral lessons they learn from this law in their daily lives. I believe that Jesus Christ was the originator of the religion of the earthly Jews. He was, himself, a Torah-observant ethnic Jew.

I believe that only those parts of Torah that dealt with the animal sacrificial system and the Temple services and priesthood, are no longer in effect, nailed to the cross. But, the rest of the Statutes and Judgements of YHWA are still in effect. However, by no means do we Protestants want to force others, whether through some world political authority, directly or indirectly (through subsidiarization or otherwise) our moral views on others other than when they break civil laws about stealing, murder, bearing false witness, defaming others who disagree with us, or whatever. We teach that an exemplary life, lived as Jesus lived His life, is the best influence.

I think that the problem of the relationship between organized religion today, and it's followers, is that the unique message of each denomination has been watered down under the influence of capitalism and an increasing message by the church that "making something of onesself" which has become the actual message of many Christian churches. They forget that dedication to Christ and the Torah He taught His followers to follow, will so bless a society that good paying jobs will be naturally present because of the dedication to others of the followers of Yeshua (Jesus).

Each denomination's job should be to teach religion and priactice to each one it's own membership a belief that says that, because we love Jesus for what He has done for us, we dare to venture out into life, and work as hard as we can, and if others fall, to help them out as best we can. Likewise, if we fall, we accept the help of others. Thus we become a truly moral society based on the principles of Yeshua (Jesus), but with no destructive enforcement of religious dogma on anyone. This is neither Catholic nor Protestant, or Jewish. It is from Yeshua who taught that all people must be free.

Freeom of religion, garanteed by the various Constitutions of the free world, is the best garantor that religion will continue to exist and thrive. There is no need for a "world political authority." That is where fear and mutual distrust came from; the idea that one's own political and economic system is best for the world.

"Subsidiarization" sounds like there would be the top echelon of governance whose "distribution" to ever more local levels of authority would function as all such human efforts at collective government have. The top decides what those below will do, and would have been given the authority, supposedly, by those smaller "subsidiaries," to enforce the will of the top echelon(s) on the smaller governmental units who then enforce those dictates on their citizens. That just boils down to the top-down, hiararchical system that runs many nations and religious organizations today. But, with the Pope telling the world leaders what to do and not do, as though to subject them to his will.
  #379  
Old Oct 19, '09, 7:06 am
crazzeto's Avatar
crazzeto crazzeto is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuzushi View Post
I am seriously alarmed that no one appears to share my concern that the leader of the Catholic Church wants to give “more teeth” to the UN over the financial destiny of free Americans. Instead of dismay or even curiosity I see apathy and resignation. I would not be surprised if one day the Pope looses his grip on reality and starts saying outrageous things like “the sky is red,” and some Catholics obediently support him with equally silly explanations like “well he really means that the heavens are red with the blood of Christ.” Words mean something. He said what he said.

Looking at the Pope’s picture in WSJ signing his letter with a HUGE gold ring I think it would be poetic justice if the Pope gets his wish, and the first edict of the newly empowered UN is to demand that the Vatican sell all its wealth to feed the poor. Somehow I just don’t think the good Pontiff would look so good with gold spray paint and cubic zirconium.
I realize this thread has gone on for like 25ps and this is a page 1 item. But why would we be concerned that the pope wrote an Encyclical about social justice in terms of economics which is what this is really all about. It's about ensuring the little guy isn't trampled on, that they do receive a fair wage for their blood sweat and tears (literal in many cases).

I think the only reason one would be concerned is if they've already come to the conclusion that the Pope is the antichrist. Or some other such non-sense which seems to circulate in certain Christian sects.
  #380  
Old Oct 19, '09, 2:01 pm
Liraco Liraco is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheNewJew View Post
Early Church historians, people like Josephus and Eusebius, etc. all have said that the early Christian Church, not called "Catholic" or "Roman" until the 5th and 6th centuries after Pentecost (still then called, in Hebrew, :"Shavuot,")
Actually, since the early 2nd century we find the term and its used without explanation as if using a new term, meaning that it was in use before. There's also Polycarp, Tertullian and the council of Nicea. The Apostles creed which we still use, is from the 4th century. So how is it that those historians find "Catholic" until so late in history?
Ignatius of Antioch
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
And yes, you CAN trace the current Pope back all the way down to Peter. History, not the Church, says so. It's not because I say so, you're right in saying I have no authority. His Church does, however.

Peace be with you, Ron. I don't want to derail this thread off topic, but if you were inclined to raise these questions on a new thread, feel free to let me know so we can discuss it there (or don't tell me so I won't go there :P).

----
On topic however,, Ron, I think you missed the point. The Pope doesn't say what governments should do, he does say what is RIGHT for them to do if we are to follow God's word in treating everyone with the dignity they deserve.

I ask you to read the previous pages as we've already beaten to death the hoax of the Pope asking to give more power to the UN and have it rule (or rule under him).

As has been said, what he asks for could be seen as utopic (therefore something that can't be achieved), but he certainly asks for the betterment of mankind, not to give more power to the powerful.
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  #381  
Old Oct 22, '09, 3:52 am
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeSword View Post
And exactly what is so bad about the U.N. to some people?
You really should read the book, "The Fearful Master" by G. Edward Griffin.
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  #382  
Old Oct 22, '09, 8:50 am
RonTheNewJew RonTheNewJew is offline
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Default Re: Pope Endorses "World Political Authority"

[quote=Liraco;5840619]Actually, since the early 2nd century we find the term and its used without explanation as if using a new term, meaning that it was in use before. There's also Polycarp, Tertullian and the council of Nicea. The Apostles creed which we still use, is from the 4th century. So how is it that those historians find "Catholic" until so late in history?

It only then meant the Church, wherever it had spread to. It only means "universal." In the second century, AD, it did not refer to a unified Christian Church because up to that time, there was no unified Christian Church. There was no "Roman Catholic Church" by name.



And yes, you CAN trace the current Pope back all the way down to Peter. History, not the Church, says so. You have authority to believe what you find in scriptures IS truth, with or without a formal organization telling you what to know.

On topic however,, Ron, I think you missed the point. The Pope doesn't say what governments should do, .

If the current pope did not mean to give the UN more power to enforce the UN's suppesedly now more moral and caring and sharing posture, then why the use of the word, "real teeth.?"

As has been said, what he asks for could be seen as utopic (therefore something that can't be achieved), but he certainly asks for the betterment of mankind, not to give more power to the powerful.

By the very panache of his statements about giving some world political organization real "teeth" in it's foreseen role of forcibly distributing, or re-distributing wealth, speaks to me, and I think most protestants, to something that is not what Christ wished for a group of sinful, selfish, covetous of power and avenues of profit, people who call themselves dependent on Him for forgiveness and sanctification (process of a lifetime).

I know that Catholics teach that Christ is our High Priest, just as Potestants do. But to most Protestants who follow the scriptural doctrine of the earthly sanctuary as having been transfered back to the Heavenly one where Christ, Himself officiates now in the Most Holy Place using His own blood for us, thereby meaning that the earthly priesthood is no longer in operation. That was the entire system of animal sacrifices and the ordinances that supported it's function, including the priesthood, that has been nailed to the cross.

The Holy Spirit, given to His apostles on the very date, Shavuot (Pentecost, in Greek), is our only guide, other than rabbi's (teachers), now called by many names, minister, elder, preacher, etc.

As far as the outline of the religion that Christ practiced and gave to His disciples to pass on to the world, it was, and still should be since Christ never commanded any changes to it, the lunar calendar and the three main festivals of what is today called "Judaism." It was the pre-incarnate Christ (YHWA) who gave His religion to Moshe (Moses) at Sinai.

The days are not ceremonies or sacrifices. They are, in this instance, the days appointed by God, the Son whom we say has always existed, from and to eternity. Christ, while on earth, changed only two things which He, as originator of the religion of the Jews, had every right to change:
1. Where they could be observed (outside Jerusalem), and
2. What the new themes would be. Not just remembrances of the past, but each annual feast day embued with His love teachings, and each one with a prophetic meaning, or what Paul called when he said that the annual feast days, new moons, and the Sabbaton (weekly seventh-day Sabbath), are "shadows of things yet to come." He spoke these words many years after Christ's Sacrifice and Pentecost. Therefore, they cannot be just another part of the "Old" Testament.

Indeed, the "New" Testament is merely an unfolding of the Old. The New one is where Christ said in Ezekiel 36, that He would put His Laws, that already existed in Ezekiel's time, into our hearts, thereby taking out of us our hearts of stone, putting in their places hearts of real flesh, causing to feel other's pain and suffering, and to do all we can, peacefully (with no force on anyone by anyone.



We Protestants find that words are indeed inexpensive. Today's pontiff has made public statements about other religions, and Protestant Christianity as well, that are not in keeping with the words and spirit of his predecessor. This short morphasus has caused deep distrust among many protestants, and others around the world.

As far as the word, "pope" is concerned, history records that there were three bishops when the second century began. The one at Rome was just one of three. The bishop of Rome tried excommunicating the one at Constantinople because he, the Polycarp you mentioned, refused to begin observing Sunday as Easter. This was in around 135 AD, at the time of the ethnic Jewish uprising against Roman rule, referred to as the Barkochpha rebellion. There was such hatred of the Jews for this, and the fact that they tried to force Christians (most of whom worshipped with the Jews in the synagagues each Sabbath and kept the annual feasts of YWHA as outlined in Exodus, Leviticus 23, and Deuteronomy, etc.) to fight the Romans. The Christians refused. They were then hated by the Jews and kicked out of the synagogues.

Christians, in reply, began to make changes in their religious calendar by means of making friends with the pagans around them. The Jews were no longer friendly and accomodating to their religious needs. The point here is that people should, everywhere, compassionately understand why the early Church made some changes. But, those times have long since passed into history. It is time to return to the Judaism that Christ practiced and taught His disciples to teach.
 

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