Are the African Anglicans doing the right thing?

VARC · #1 Oct 24, '09, 10:27 pm

They are locking homosexuals away in prison. I know that most here are opposed to homosexuality. Would you support prison terms for gays in your country?

http://www.episcopal-life.org/81808_115951_ENG_HTM.htm

gurneyhalleck1 · #2 Oct 24, '09, 10:32 pm

I consider the gay lifestyle repugnant, un-Christian, and I think in no way, shape, or form should we ever as a society condone the activity or give it the status of marriage, civil unions, or any sort of dignity. I believe it is a disordered lifestyle full of temporal and eternal repercussions. That being said, to police this with jail time would be so impossible logistically and financially that, no, I do not believe it should entail jail time. It's not realistic. But society should not condone it let alone embrace it as we have done already. Sad stuff...

VARC · #3 Oct 24, '09, 11:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1

I consider the gay lifestyle repugnant, un-Christian, and I think in no way, shape, or form should we ever as a society condone the activity or give it the status of marriage, civil unions, or any sort of dignity. I believe it is a disordered lifestyle full of temporal and eternal repercussions. That being said, to police this with jail time would be so impossible logistically and financially that, no, I do not believe it should entail jail time. It's not realistic. But society should not condone it let alone embrace it as we have done already. Sad stuff...

But is your only objection that of logistical pragmatism? The Africans don't seem to be so burdened by the logistics of it. If it were practical, as it seems to be in Africa, would you support it? Or do you believe there is something wrong with locking up gays for acting out their homosexuality?

Hesychios · #4 Oct 24, '09, 11:07 pm

I can remember when sodomy would get one jail time in many parts of the United States.

I am glad those days are mostly over, but what we have now is also bad, western society has ways of glorifying the lifestyle. I do not agree with that at all.

Considering the lifestyle to be disordered does not mean I believe a jail sentence is the correct approach to handling it.

Catholic29 · #5 Oct 24, '09, 11:16 pm

Personally I don't see laws being promulgated to outlaw homosexuality in the United States or any Western country any time soon.

Anglicans I must say are an eclectic bunch. An openly gay American bishop (Gene Robinson), while this African bishop (Stanley Ntagali) supports jail time for being gay....

emeraldcoast · #6 Oct 25, '09, 2:54 pm

It is very disappointing for me to hear that Bishop Ntagali will not accept the Pope's invitation to become a Roman Catholic.

Is it okay for me to say that I think Bishop Ntagali is a whack-job? Judging...probably so..

God Bless!

VARC · #7 Oct 25, '09, 4:08 pm

He's pretty much mainstream as far as African Anglicans go. Puts some perspective on the ACNA realignment. This is what they chose over +Schori. Now I'm not her biggest fan. She can be a little heterdox in her terminology and seems to downplay the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as the only Savior but she isn't advocating the persecution and oppression of the weak and outcast. It is a tough decision but whose camp would you want to be standing in on Judgment Day?

emeraldcoast · #8 Oct 25, '09, 4:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARC

He's pretty much mainstream as far as African Anglicans go. Puts some perspective on the ACNA realignment. This is what they chose over +Schori. Now I'm not her biggest fan. She can be a little heterdox in her terminology and seems to downplay the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as the only Savior but she isn't advocating the persecution and oppression of the weak and outcast. It is a tough decision but whose camp would you want to be standing in on Judgment Day?

I don't think that his behavior follows Jesus' example when He asked for the one that was sinless to cast the first stone at the adultress. This guy seems to have a big block in his left hand and a stick in his right hand. ACNA can have him--good luck with this one.

God Bless!

VARC · #9 Oct 25, '09, 4:26 pm

I don't want to come off as disowning African Anglicans because of what I see as oppression and persecution of the weak. Although my view is that what they are doing is wrong and will pray that they cease I wouldn't want to ban them from Lambeth or boycott Lambeth because of them. I wouldn't attempt to establish another Anglican province in their territory because of it. Although what they are doing is seriously sinful in my view. Unfortunately the same patience is not extended to TEC by the Africans.

**puzzleannie** · #10 Oct 25, '09, 4:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARC

They are locking homosexuals away in prison. I know that most here are opposed to homosexuality. Would you support prison terms for gays in your country?

http://www.episcopal-life.org/81808_115951_ENG_HTM.htm

I don't think the Episcopalians are doing that, I think the government of the country (Uganda) is doing it, so I take you question about "doing the right thing" refers to the Episcopal bishop quoted who supported the current law in his country. I suppose it depends on the country and if there is a law being broken, then yes, anyone who breaks the law should be prosecuted. But in my country it is not illegal, so I won't comment. The article did not make it clear, and the phrasing of OP does not help much, if the law is transgressed simply by having a homosexual inclination, or by engaging in specific activity.

VARC · #11 Oct 25, '09, 4:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by puzzleannie

I don't think the Episcopalians are doing that, I think the government of the country (Uganda) is doing it, so I take you question about "doing the right thing" refers to the Episcopal bishop quoted who supported the current law in his country. I suppose it depends on the country and if there is a law being broken, then yes, anyone who breaks the law should be prosecuted. But in my country it is not illegal, so I won't comment. The article did not make it clear, and the phrasing of OP does not help much, if the law is transgressed simply by having a homosexual inclination, or by engaging in specific activity.

The laws that throw homosexuals into prison were endorsed and promoted by the bishops of the local Anglican Church. Read the article...

"United States-based Human Rights Watch has said that in recent months, "There has been increased campaigning against homosexuality in Uganda, led by churches and anti-gay groups."

The same has occured in Nigeria a few years back.
"The Christian Association of Nigeria (Can), the umbrella body for Nigerian Christians, called for speedy passage of the law, describing same sex unions as "barbaric and shameful"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6362505.stm

dzheremi · #12 Oct 25, '09, 5:22 pm

Hmmm. The question is basically one of criminalizing sin, which I do not think is a good thing. I do not suffer from this particular sin myself, but there are many others which are equally shameful and an affront to God which would affect me, should we start going down this road. In my mind, one of the things that separates Christianity from the Judaism of the Old Testament and from Islam is its attitude towards sin, which is not so legalistic as in those religions. If we were to start criminalizing sin, I have no doubt that there would be a negative overall effect on the spiritual health of our communities. We have confession before a priest who is acting in the person of Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, not before a judge who is acting on behalf of the state. I would hate to lose that distinction.

Besides, the sinner is already in his own spiritual prison. Confession with sincere contrition is the key, not incarceration.

gurneyhalleck1 · #13 Oct 25, '09, 9:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARC

He's pretty much mainstream as far as African Anglicans go. Puts some perspective on the ACNA realignment. This is what they chose over +Schori. Now I'm not her biggest fan. She can be a little heterdox in her terminology and seems to downplay the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as the only Savior but she isn't advocating the persecution and oppression of the weak and outcast. It is a tough decision but whose camp would you want to be standing in on Judgment Day?

Now THAT gave me a chuckle!! LOL

gurneyhalleck1 · #14 Oct 25, '09, 10:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARC

But is your only objection that of logistical pragmatism? The Africans don't seem to be so burdened by the logistics of it. If it were practical, as it seems to be in Africa, would you support it? Or do you believe there is something wrong with locking up gays for acting out their homosexuality?

I think your argument is trying to pain anyone who is against the homosexual lifestyle as some hillbilly redneck who hangs out with the Clan and wants to jail anyone who isn't in their playbook as "ok." Personally I loath homosexuality as much as I do adultery within a heterosexual couple. I view homosexuality as evil as divorce/remarriage. So, logically were I to jail the active gay fellow, I'd have to follow suit and jail anyone who did partook of those other sins. So my answer is no. God will deal with these sins, not me or the local P.D. What I will agree with you on is that the gays are an easy target from conservatives in a group like ACNA. So far at St. Paul's I've had this discussion with the rector. He and some of these other conservatives love to bag on the gay marriage thing, but in sermons and discussions divorce and remarriage are not great but a necessary evil. I disagree. While I know the gay lifestyle is un-Christian and sinful, divorce and remarriage is ACTUALLY ADDRESSED by Our Lord explicitly. And yet that is tolerated? Again, the Catholic Church is more consistent in this area. The ACNA is picking and choosing the lesser sins in their opinion and going after the easier target. There are no active gays so to speak, in the congregation in our area. At least the chances are low. But there are PLENTY of divorcees who have remarried, sometimes several times, and we can't hurt their feelings now, can we?

VARC · #15 Oct 25, '09, 10:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1

I think your argument is trying to pain anyone who is against the homosexual lifestyle as some hillbilly redneck who hangs out with the Clan and wants to jail anyone who isn't in their playbook as "ok." Personally I loath homosexuality as much as I do adultery within a heterosexual couple. I view homosexuality as evil as divorce/remarriage. So, logically were I to jail the active gay fellow, I'd have to follow suit and jail anyone who did partook of those other sins. So my answer is no. God will deal with these sins, not me or the local P.D. What I will agree with you on is that the gays are an easy target from conservatives in a group like ACNA. So far at St. Paul's I've had this discussion with the rector. He and some of these other conservatives love to bag on the gay marriage thing, but in sermons and discussions divorce and remarriage are not great but a necessary evil. I disagree. While I know the gay lifestyle is un-Christian and sinful, divorce and remarriage is ACTUALLY ADDRESSED by Our Lord explicitly. And yet that is tolerated? Again, the Catholic Church is more consistent in this area. The ACNA is picking and choosing the lesser sins in their opinion and going after the easier target. There are no active gays so to speak, in the congregation in our area. At least the chances are low. But there are PLENTY of divorcees who have remarried, sometimes several times, and we can't hurt their feelings now, can we?

Scapegoating is an effective tool of the wicked. It doesn't surprise me that those who rail against gays turn a blind eye to other practices that are harmful to marriage. It reveals that family values and biblical adherence is not so important after all. At least TEC is consistent in its message of inclusivity and modernity. TEC's consistency suggests sincerity. But the ACNA...perhaps inconsistency reveals hypocrisy