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  #1  
Old Oct 21, '09, 7:10 am
Addai Addai is offline
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Default Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

I'm really surprised there hasn't been a thread about this already. Ok technically there not an EC (for you message board topical purists), but since this up the alley of the EC folks here I thought they should weigh in.



VATICAN CITY -- Pope Benedict XVI has created a new church structure for Anglicans who want to join the Catholic Church, responding to the disillusionment of some Anglicans over the ordination of women and the election of openly gay bishops.

The new provision will allow Anglicans to join the Catholic Church while maintaining their Anglican identity and many of their liturgical traditions, Cardinal William Levada, the Vatican's chief doctrinal official, told a news conference.


The new church structure, called Personal Ordinariates, will be units of faithful within the local Catholic Church headed by former Anglican prelates who will provide spiritual care for Anglicans who wish to become Catholic.

"Those Anglicans who have approached the Holy See have made clear their desire for full, visible unity in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church," Levada said. "At the same time, they have told us of the importance of their Anglican traditions of spirituality and worship for their faith journey."

Levada said the new canonical structure is a response to the many requests that have come to the Vatican over the years from Anglicans who have become increasingly disillusioned with the ordination of women, the election of openly gay bishops and the blessing of same-sex unions in the 77-million strong Anglican Communion. He declined to give figures on the number of requests that have come to the Vatican, or on the anticipated number of Anglicans who might take advantage of the new structure.

The new canonical provision allows married Anglican priests to become ordained Catholic priests - much the same way that Eastern rite priests who are in communion with Rome are allowed to be married. However, married Anglicans couldn't become Catholic bishops.

read the rest here
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/...s_7019123.html

Last edited by Addai; Oct 21, '09 at 7:20 am.
  #2  
Old Oct 21, '09, 8:12 am
a pilgrim a pilgrim is offline
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Addai View Post
"...since this up the alley of the EC folks here I thought they should weigh in."
?????

I don't get the connection. Why do you see this as being specifically "up the alley" of Eastern Catholics?
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  #3  
Old Oct 21, '09, 8:39 am
GKC GKC is online now
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

There is a lengthy thread on the subject in the Non-Catholics forum.

GKC
  #4  
Old Oct 21, '09, 9:32 am
Amadeus Amadeus is offline
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

The proposed canonical structure for converting Anglicans this time around is "Personal Ordinariate," a new one in the Catholic Church.

It is not the same as the "sui iuris" status granted to the Eastern Catholic Churches.

However, we should wait for the Apostolic Constitution to be formally published and read the provisions thereof before we can accurately define what a 'Personal Ordinariate" is, although it has been observed that it is akin to a "Military Ordinariate."
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  #5  
Old Oct 21, '09, 11:32 am
malphono malphono is online now
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

It seems to me this "Personal Ordinariate" may be nothing more than another name for "Personal Prelacy" which is really the same as the the "Military Ordinariate" since they're non-territorial. There may be some very subtle legal difference, but if so, I don't see it. I suppose, though, that Amado is right that we have to wait for the actual document for specifics. And then, of course, the lawyers ...
  #6  
Old Oct 21, '09, 11:38 am
StillWondering StillWondering is offline
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

I am speculating that it would not be possible to have an Anglican Sui Juris. My reasoning boils down to this potentially large number of converts not having long standing valid Holy Orders. Despite their assent to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Sui Juris groups are pastorally independant in the sense that they have valid Bishops and primates.

In addition, one of the statements by Cardinal Lavade (hopefully I have his name correct) had a phrase that suggested Anglican priests may seek ordination but Anglican married bishops are not planned to be ordained as Catholic Bishops. So I'm guessing these former bishops will become ordinaries with administrative authority instead of Catholic Bishops.
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  #7  
Old Oct 21, '09, 1:07 pm
Amadeus Amadeus is offline
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

If the CDF (and the Holy Father) thought it wise to grant sui iuris status to these converting Anglicans, the provisions of the CCEO could have been easily invoked.

But, understandably, the Canons for the Eastern Churches have no application to the TAC and other Western ecclesial communities.

To date there is only ONE Personal Prelature of the Pope: the Opus Dei. If one investigates the nature of the Opus Dei, it becomes farfetched to organize the various TACs and other Anglican would-be converts throughout the world OD-like organizations. They have to be parish-based like the Anglican Use parishes in the U.S.
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  #8  
Old Oct 21, '09, 1:27 pm
Addai Addai is offline
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

Quote:
Originally Posted by a pilgrim View Post
?????

I don't get the connection. Why do you see this as being specifically "up the alley" of Eastern Catholics?
Because they have some parallel characteristics that set them apart from the RC church such as married priests, "keeping their own tradition" etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC View Post
There is a lengthy thread on the subject in the Non-Catholics forum.

GKC
Thanks I should check that out. I don't go there too often and have avoided it as a waste of time because they usually end up rehashing old debates I'm very familiar and tired of such as Protestants against Catholics, Mormons,Muslims, Buddhists and New Agers promoting their beliefs etc.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
The proposed canonical structure for converting Anglicans this time around is "Personal Ordinariate," a new one in the Catholic Church.

It is not the same as the "sui iuris" status granted to the Eastern Catholic Churches.

However, we should wait for the Apostolic Constitution to be formally published and read the provisions thereof before we can accurately define what a 'Personal Ordinariate" is, although it has been observed that it is akin to a "Military Ordinariate."
Thanks I had my doubts about the designation but since I'm a EC newbie I didn;t know what else to call it.
  #9  
Old Oct 21, '09, 5:58 pm
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
. . .
However, we should wait for the Apostolic Constitution to be formally published and read the provisions thereof before we can accurately define what a 'Personal Ordinariate" is, although it has been observed that it is akin to a "Military Ordinariate."
I heard today that it will be available in about two weeks.
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  #10  
Old Oct 26, '09, 12:25 pm
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

NOT the same at all. The Eastern catholic churches were ALWAYS part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. I'm not up on the specifics, but there was only ever a schism based mostly on authority (with a liberal dose of misunderstanding and trumped up theological differences). Even during the schisms, the Eastern churches maintained valid sacraments, valid bishops, etc.

The Anglican 'church' on the other hand ceased to be apostolic when for an entire generation of bishops the Church of England essentially went completely protestant and rejected the validity and value of the sacrament of Holy Orders. By the time they re-embraced it, all the valid bishops were dead. I've REALLY condensed the history here, mind you! The Vatican document/ruling on the matter was called Apostolicae Curae (searchable!). Written before 1900, that document does NOT address more recent Anglican ordinations in which priests and bishops sought out schimatic catholic bishops to co-consecrate them. (Rome has studiously avoided giving an opinion on this so-called "Dutch Touch." )

So the Anglican case is different in that they have long been considered an "christian ecclesial community" rather than a church, as catholics define the term. If Cromwell had never gotten his claws on the Church of England the story might have ended more like the Eastern Churches. But 'what if' is not really all that productive.....

It has always seemed odd to me that an Anglican candidate for priesthood would ardently defend the apostolic succession of Anglican bishops and at the same time, hedge bets by seeking out a schismatic catholic bishop for a bit of insurance on ordination day!
  #11  
Old Oct 26, '09, 12:50 pm
GKC GKC is online now
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
NOT the same at all. The Eastern catholic churches were ALWAYS part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. I'm not up on the specifics, but there was only ever a schism based mostly on authority (with a liberal dose of misunderstanding and trumped up theological differences). Even during the schisms, the Eastern churches maintained valid sacraments, valid bishops, etc.

The Anglican 'church' on the other hand ceased to be apostolic when for an entire generation of bishops the Church of England essentially went completely protestant and rejected the validity and value of the sacrament of Holy Orders. By the time they re-embraced it, all the valid bishops were dead. I've REALLY condensed the history here, mind you! The Vatican document/ruling on the matter was called Apostolicae Curae (searchable!). Written before 1900, that document does NOT address more recent Anglican ordinations in which priests and bishops sought out schismatic catholic bishops to co-consecrate them. (Rome has studiously avoided giving an opinion on this so-called "Dutch Touch." )

So the Anglican case is different in that they have long been considered an "christian ecclesial community" rather than a church, as catholics define the term. If Cromwell had never gotten his claws on the Church of England the story might have ended more like the Eastern Churches. But 'what if' is not really all that productive.....

It has always seemed odd to me that an Anglican candidate for priesthood would ardently defend the apostolic succession of Anglican bishops and at the same time, hedge bets by seeking out a schismatic catholic bishop for a bit of insurance on ordination day!


A good summary. But the judgment of intent in Apostolicae Cuare (1896) is more likely based on the intent of the consecrators of ++Parker, in 1559, under Elizabeth I's reign, and definitely on an interelated point about the form of the ritual in the Edwardine Ordinal. The two concepts have to be considered together, technically. And the issue of intent is somewhat unclear. Fr. Francis Clark in his ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION ( the best presentation of the whole case, from the RCC side that I know of) discusses 7 possible applications of the term, in the Bull, before settling on ++Parker's consecrators. And Cromwell is not to blame. It was Edward's Protectors that slammed the CoE hard over reformed, as noted in the judgment on the Edwardine Ordinal.

The story of the intercommunion between the Anglican Communion and the Old Catholics of Utrecht is more complicated than you suggest. It was a formal and negotiated intercommunion that was set up in 1931-32, and that resulted (among other things) in joint consecrations for both Communions, beginning in 1932. The reasons and story behind all this maybe found (briefly) in Fr. J. J. Hughes' STEWARDS OF THE LORD and Fr. C. B. Moss' THE OLD CATHOLIC MOVEMENT. Hughes also covers briefly the start of joint consecrations between the Anglicans and the PNCC, in 1946.

I am, as you will note, off my home range in this forum.


GKC

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  #12  
Old Oct 26, '09, 1:13 pm
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC View Post
And Cromwell is not to blame. It was Edward's Protectors that slammed the CoE hard over reformed, as noted in the judgment on the Edwardine Ordinal.
A technical quibble, I suppose. Had not Cromwell's avarice so completely hardened the schism with Rome, the power vacuum that sucked in the Calvinists would not have been formed. But causes can be debated forever! And perhaps my Belloc biasis showing....

As usual, you post more detail and more precision. Thanks!
  #13  
Old Oct 26, '09, 1:30 pm
GKC GKC is online now
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
A technical quibble, I suppose. Had not Cromwell's avarice so completely hardened the schism with Rome, the power vacuum that sucked in the Calvinists would not have been formed. But causes can be debated forever! And perhaps my Belloc biasis showing....

As usual, you post more detail and more precision. Thanks!

You are very kind.

Have I ever mentioned that I've collected Belloc, read and studied him, for about 45 years?


GKC
  #14  
Old Oct 26, '09, 4:15 pm
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKC View Post

Have I ever mentioned that I've collected Belloc, read and studied him, for about 45 years?

GKC
You did. And you've got a good 43 years on me there too! Quite a character, brilliant and flawed; both right out there unvarnished!
  #15  
Old Oct 26, '09, 6:07 pm
GKC GKC is online now
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Default Re: Anglicans become (an EC-like) Sui Juris

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You did. And you've got a good 43 years on me there too! Quite a character, brilliant and flawed; both right out there unvarnished!
I agree. And I should say, occasionally, that finding Hilary a fascinating person, good reading, and someone who I would have loved to sup with, at King's Land, over a bottle of his own wine, doesn't mean that I agree with him on all points. I might leave the wrong impression.


GKC
 

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