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  #76  
Old Apr 15, '05, 9:44 am
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV
Well, then I would humbly suggest that since he failed to protect the most innocent of his sheep in his former flock, that we not put him in charge of another one, esp. if it's going to be a visible position. There are lots of quieter positions in the Vatican. Also, I go back to my original position: this isn't about "punishing him." It's about him, hopefully in a voluntary way, withdrawing from public site. "Glorified pastor?" I should think it would be a glory to be pastor of any kind.
Not to be obtuse here but it may be he refused or suggested otherwise but he must be obedient to orders right? He may not have the choice to withdraw. And in some ways I think a public position is more of a punishment than sending him to a monastery where he can hide from public scrutiny and avoid criticism.

Also while the bascilica is certainly beautiful, is Cardinal Law in charge of young people or priests who are in charge of young people? I got the impression he was in mostly a ceremonial rather than an administrative role. But honestly, I don't know what his duties are now, other than of course saying the mass. Certainly I wouldn't want to see him in his former role as an overseer of a diocese but this isn't my impression of the current assignment. He seems more a bird in a guilded cage than anything else.

Lisa N
  #77  
Old Apr 15, '05, 9:59 am
mtr01 mtr01 is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV
Well, then I would humbly suggest that since he failed to protect the most innocent of his sheep in his former flock, that we not put him in charge of another one, esp. if it's going to be a visible position. There are lots of quieter positions in the Vatican. Also, I go back to my original position: this isn't about "punishing him." It's about him, hopefully in a voluntary way, withdrawing from public site. "Glorified pastor?" I should think it would be a glory to be pastor of any kind.
So then your beef is with Law himself and not the Vatican - unless you think he should have been defrocked himself. I certainly wouldn't want to place my moral judgement next to that of the Holy Father.

I see you are still having some difficulties in grasping what an archpriest actually does, however. Again, it is a ceremonial post. Further, you also did not grasp my meaning of the term "glorified". The title is "glorified", not the position. In fact, it is more of a titular benefice than a real role.

Quote:
Serving as archpriest of St. Mary Major, on the other hand, essentially means that Law ensures the lights are on for Sunday Mass. It is not seen as an especially prestigious position, and Law’s appointment to the job was, in effect, interpreted here as a way of “letting him down gently.”

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter..../pt041105c.htm
As I stated in another thread about the Mass:

From Zenit:

Quote:
Day 4: Monday, April 11, 5 p.m. For the chapters of the patriarchal basilicas. The concelebration will be presided by Cardinal Bernard Law, retired archbishop of Boston and archpriest of the patriarchal Basilica of St. Mary Major.
3 of the patriarchal basilicas have cardinal archpriests:

St. Mary Major - Cardinal Law
St. Peter's - Cardinal Marchisano
St. John Lateran - Cardinal Ruini

Considering that traditionally, one of these three would have to perform the Mass, and also given that Cardinal Marchisano celebrated the Mass on Saturday, and Cardinal Ruini on Sunday, who else would you get?

Again, it's one thing to be upset at Law for not stepping down if feel it would have been appropriate for him to do so. But I don't see how anyone can fault the Vatican, or claim that it was "thumbing its nose" at America.
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  #78  
Old Apr 15, '05, 10:30 am
shellyn shellyn is offline
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Post Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

I hope this does not degenerate into a tirade on anyone's part.

I grew up in the Diocese of Springfield-Cape Girardeau in Missouri, where Cardinal (then Bishop) Law was prior to being in Boston.

I spent many wonderful early mornings at Bishop Law's home with a group of highschool and college students who met for Mass, discussion and breakfast once a week before school. Bishop Law started this when he came to the diocese, and continued it through his tenure there. I also have a wonderful memory of the Boshop visiting my family the first week he has in the diocese while my grandfather was in the hospital. He decided to make rounds at St. John's.

We all have fallen short. I believe that Cardinal Law made decisions based on the best infomration he had - information we now know was flawed. That is not an excuse - its just a reality.

I believe "hiding out" would have been even more injurious. My thoughts are, that, Cardinal Law has always been a little mix of both, as we all are. And hiding from the repercussions of our sin and shortcomings is always a bad idea.
  #79  
Old Apr 15, '05, 10:30 am
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

No, I understand that it being an archpriest (ceremonial) is not the same as the exercise of an Archbishopric (ceremonial and administrative). I have understood it. I'm just not saying it's not a big deal. It's still a bit of a plum AND it's still public. As to the question of who might have celebrated the Mass, I should think the Cardinals could have come up with someone. It didn't HAVE to be him. I have not said that the Holy See is thumbing its nose at America, my "beef," indeed, is with Cardinal Law. I still maintain that for the good of Holy Mother Church and out of a sense of belated compassion for the victims, he should have stood aside in this instance, he never should have accepted the position in the first place, he should have said,"No, Holy Father, I think it better that I retire from the public scene."
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  #80  
Old Apr 15, '05, 10:34 am
Vox Borealis Vox Borealis is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtr01
So then your beef is with Law himself and not the Vatican - unless you think he should have been defrocked himself. I certainly wouldn't want to place my moral judgement next to that of the Holy Father.

I see you are still having some difficulties in grasping what an archpriest actually does, however. Again, it is a ceremonial post. Further, you also did not grasp my meaning of the term "glorified". The title is "glorified", not the position. In fact, it is more of a titular benefice than a real role.



As I stated in another thread about the Mass:

From Zenit:



3 of the patriarchal basilicas have cardinal archpriests:

St. Mary Major - Cardinal Law
St. Peter's - Cardinal Marchisano
St. John Lateran - Cardinal Ruini

Considering that traditionally, one of these three would have to perform the Mass, and also given that Cardinal Marchisano celebrated the Mass on Saturday, and Cardinal Ruini on Sunday, who else would you get?

Again, it's one thing to be upset at Law for not stepping down if feel it would have been appropriate for him to do so. But I don't see how anyone can fault the Vatican, or claim that it was "thumbing its nose" at America.
Thank you; well-argued and written!
  #81  
Old Apr 15, '05, 10:37 am
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

No, I understand that it being an archpriest (ceremonial) is not the same as the exercise of an Archbishopric (ceremonial and administrative). I have understood it. I'm just not saying it's not a big deal. It's still a bit of a plum AND it's still public. As to the question of who might have celebrated the Mass, I should think the Cardinals could have come up with someone. It didn't HAVE to be him. I have not said that the Holy See is thumbing its nose at America, my "beef," indeed, is with Cardinal Law. I still maintain that for the good of Holy Mother Church and out of a sense of belated compassion for the victims, he should have stood aside in this instance, he never should have accepted the position in the first place, he should have said,"No, Holy Father, I think it better that I retire from the public scene."
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  #82  
Old Apr 15, '05, 10:37 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
he never should have accepted the position in the first place, he should have said,"No, Holy Father, I think it better that I retire from the public scene."
With respect, how do you know that he didn't do EXACTLY THAT?

Maybe he begged and pleaded to be allowed to retire to a monastery, and our Holy Father, in his wisdom, decided it would be a better DISCIPLINE (a word I prefer to punishment) for Law to be where he is now.

We don't know, all we know is the action of the Holy Father. He was not perfect (none of us is) but he also was a very holy man and I'm sure he engaged in much prayer over this decision. Right or wrong (and none of us has the authority to second-guess the Pope's authority over a Cardinal), Roma locuta est.
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  #83  
Old Apr 15, '05, 10:45 am
JKirkLVNV JKirkLVNV is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantum ergo
With respect, how do you know that he didn't do EXACTLY THAT?

Maybe he begged and pleaded to be allowed to retire to a monastery, and our Holy Father, in his wisdom, decided it would be a better DISCIPLINE (a word I prefer to punishment) for Law to be where he is now.

We don't know, all we know is the action of the Holy Father. He was not perfect (none of us is) but he also was a very holy man and I'm sure he engaged in much prayer over this decision. Right or wrong (and none of us has the authority to second-guess the Pope's authority over a Cardinal), Roma locuta est.
When we're asked for comments, if I feel like commenting, I comment. We were asked," Saint or sinner?" Comments were invited. No one loved the Holy Father more than I did. I just feel this is all to much to ask of the victims, to endure the scandal of it. If he was in quiet retirement, it wouldn't be an issue.
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  #84  
Old Apr 15, '05, 10:50 am
larryo larryo is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Borealis
This thread has led to two level of discussion. On one level is the initial question--is Law a sinner or saint. Well, like all humans (inlcuding the saints) he is of course a sinner. Is he a saint--well, probably not, like most all of us.

So, what am I saying in this long, rambling post? I guess that the whole debate about whether or not Law should be forgiven of if he should have been "allowed" to say this important mass is basically moot. Once he was not excommunicated or defrocked years ago--and some in this forum think he should have been--the whole sequence was put in motion that led inevitably and almost uncontrollably (accept by Law himself) to him celebrating the mass. And the honor of celebrating the novendiales mass is really the issue. Frankly, had Cardinal Law died last year, no one really would have cared that he held the honorable post of archpriest of Sta Maria Maggiore.
Great response, Vox Borealis. I would add that, to my knowledge, Cardinal Law was certainly guilty of bad judgment in listening to psychologists and lawyers, but he has not been convicted of any crime. I pray that he has sought and been granted forgiveness for his failures and negligence. I think another consideration in his favor vis-a-vis Pope John Paul II was the fact that Cardinal Law was the initial driving force behind issuance of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We should all pray for Cardinal Law and the other cardinals as they struggle with following the promptings of the Holy Spirit in electing a new pope.
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  #85  
Old Apr 15, '05, 11:07 am
harveyc harveyc is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV
My reading of the New Testament includes admonitions to not give or cause scandal. I don't think anyone is denying Cardinal Law forgiveness/absolution/redeemption. Heck, we're not even denying him the rich robe and the ring for his finger, a al the Prodigal Son. I think we're just saying he should not, for the sake of the Church and of the victims, have an overtly visible role. He should VOLUNTARILY abstain from presenting himself at ceremonies and from voting in the conclave. Cardinal Sin had to do so due to illness, there's nothing wrong with it.
I had used the Prodigal Son as an example in a prior thread before it got locked. I think of this as a good example for this case, but don't think that you apply it completely. The father threw a party for his son that asked for forgiveness. In my mind, that's akin to the visible role you don't think Cardinal Law should be holding. The Prodigal Son's brother did not like the attention being given to his brother either. That's human nature, often. Pope John Paul II was wiser than any of us, I believe, and I'm sure he made his decisions after reflection and making use of his wisdom. Not everyone may like it, but it was probably the right one.
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  #86  
Old Apr 15, '05, 11:13 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

Well, of course you comment, and I hope that you didn't take the idea from my post that I was criticizing you personally or denying you your right to comment.

Not only is my diocese under the Boston archdiocese, I have dealt with sexual abuse of a member of my family, a child. Of course, since she wasn't molested by a priest, it isn't a "big deal". . .I personally find incest at least as shocking and devastating to the psyche, but then I'm no professional or cleric.

So, do you think that I don't harbor personal wishes involving punishment to the one responsible? Retirement to a dungeon I would, in my more "wordly" moments, think was "far too good" for him. Believe me, I understand the desire for punishment and restitution very, very well. I understand the pain of the victims and their families, and I also know that nothing, not even the death and dismemberment of the Cardinal, indeed of every single priest on earth, guilty or not, would "satisfy" that desire. But of course, that is just the type of desire that Jesus has called us to renounce. I try. . .and I fail, a lot. . .but I honestly feel that giving in to what seems the compassionate impulse to "think of the victims and their feelings" is the sort of secular morality that looks good on the surface but actually runs counter to the morality that God demands of us.

Yes, we should "think of the victims"; we should also be thinking of the one who has victimized them, and the trick with that is not forgetting that BOTH are humans, both are children of God, and that unless we can do the very, very difficult but NOT impossible (with God's help) task of forgiving, and NOT giving in to the desires of vengeance and retribution, we are never going to move beyond an eternal polarity, as we see now, of those who cannot forgive. . .and who face the possibility that because of that lack they will not be forgiven themselves.

My heart aches for all victims of abuse, but after the acknowledgement of the crime, and the mourning for the losses, one has to GIVE UP the role of VICTIM. A person doesn't cease to be a person when something happens to him. The person who happens to be victim of a crime must move on to be a person who is recovering from being a victim to the final step of a person who has forgiven his attacker and no longer is a passive victim but an active and Christ-like example of forgiveness.
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  #87  
Old Apr 15, '05, 12:36 pm
catholic2 catholic2 is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Law, Saint or Sinner?

I have a feeling that certain posters equate forgiveness with tolerance.
 

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