Justification - Catholics and Protestants

[E.E.N.S.]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

Sure, historic Protestantism believes in a forensic justification. We are credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ through the instrument of faith as our means of justification at our conversion. The righteousness of Christ alone is eternally sufficient for us for our justification. We are made righteous through the Spirit which Protestants call sanctification. I'm not going to represent the Catholic view of justification, but we see things quite differently since Catholic don’t separate justification from sanctification like Protestants do. However, if you read the Pope's teaching on justification, many Evangelicals can receive it. I rejoice over it, and see it to be excellent teaching regardless of being Catholic or Protestant. And, that’s a good thing.

The Pope's teaching on justification is the Catholic teaching on justification, yet you imply that it isn't.

[bookgirl32]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

Things look quite different with the proper context, doesn't it? I think you should go to the TULIP thread to get my answer to your question

What context did I take it out of? He listed what he thought you believed. How hard is it to state that you do or don't?

You want me to go to the thread on TULIP? You just stated, on the thread on Tulip, that you didn't think it was a good place for the discussion on TULIP and you hoped the moderators would move it back here.

[bookgirl32]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

Sure, historic Protestantism believes in a forensic justification. We are credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ through the instrument of faith as our means of justification at our conversion. The righteousness of Christ alone is eternally sufficient for us for our justification. We are made righteous through the Spirit which Protestants call sanctification. I'm not going to represent the Catholic view of justification, but we see things quite differently since Catholic don’t separate justification from sanctification like Protestants do. However, if you read the Pope's teaching on justification, many Evangelicals can receive it. I rejoice over it, and see it to be excellent teaching regardless of being Catholic or Protestant. And, that’s a good thing.

So . . . you understand what the Catholic teaching is, you understand what the Pope said, and you think that the Pope and the Church have two different views on justification?

[E.E.N.S.]

Originally Posted by bookgirl32

So . . . YOU THINK you understand what the Catholic teaching is, YOU THINK you understand what the Pope said, and you think that the Pope and the Church have two different views on justification?

Fixed.

[2nd Adam]

Originally Posted by bookgirl32

So . . . you understand what the Catholic teaching is, you understand what the Pope said, and you think that the Pope and the Church have two different views on justification?

I'm not sure how much you understand the history of the Protestant Reformation and the doctrine of justification. IMO... it appears the Catholic Church has moved toward a more Protestant friendly position of justification, even though they are still very different. However, most Protestants and Catholics are not too concerned with our different positions on justification.

[2nd Adam]

Originally Posted by E.E.N.S.

The Pope's teaching on justification is the Catholic teaching on justification, yet you imply that it isn't.

Just like TULIP, this is some pretty tough stuff. This is not fast food theology. Here's a document that you should consider reading. Let me know what you think about it.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...ration_en.html

JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church

Preamble

1.The doctrine of justification was of central importance for the Lutheran Reformation of the sixteenth century. It was held to be the "first and chief article"[1] and at the same time the "ruler and judge over all other Christian doctrines."[2] The doctrine of justification was particularly asserted and defended in its Reformation shape and special valuation over against the Roman Catholic Church and theology of that time, which in turn asserted and defended a doctrine of justification of a different character. From the Reformation perspective, justification was the crux of all the disputes. Doctrinal condemnations were put forward both in the Lutheran Confessions[3] and by the Roman Catholic Church's Council of Trent. These condemnations are still valid today and thus have a church-dividing effect.

[E.E.N.S.]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

Just like TULIP, this is some pretty tough stuff. This is not fast food theology. Here's a document that you should consider reading. Let me know what you think about it.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...ration_en.html

JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church

Preamble

1.The doctrine of justification was of central importance for the Lutheran Reformation of the sixteenth century. It was held to be the "first and chief article"[1] and at the same time the "ruler and judge over all other Christian doctrines."[2] The doctrine of justification was particularly asserted and defended in its Reformation shape and special valuation over against the Roman Catholic Church and theology of that time, which in turn asserted and defended a doctrine of justification of a different character. From the Reformation perspective, justification was the crux of all the disputes. Doctrinal condemnations were put forward both in the Lutheran Confessions[3] and by the Roman Catholic Church's Council of Trent. These condemnations are still valid today and thus have a church-dividing effect.

I have read it before, more than once I might add. You are still trying to imply (it would seem) that the Pope somehow teaches a different view than the Catholic Church, and I am telling you that you are mistaken.

[bookgirl32]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

I'm not sure how much you understand the history of the Protestant Reformation and the doctrine of justification.

I'm sure you could teach me a thing or two about it. It would be nice, though, if you would acknowledge that I could teach you a thing or two about Catholicism.

IMO... it appears the Catholic Church has moved toward a more Protestant friendly position of justification, even though they are still very different.

The Church is trying to be ecumenical, yes. But the funny thing is that the address you quoted to illustrate this was actually, poliltely, getting a jab in at sola fide altogether, in any way that the myriad of denominations define it. The Church isn't going to move anywhere, it will encourage Protestantism to come home by helping them to understand it's errors.

However, most Protestants and Catholics are not too concerned with our different positions on justification.

Do you say this because you don't often come upon a Catholic and a Protestant in public having a debate on justification? Or do you say this because you find a hard time finding Protestants or Catholics that will make a personal statement about another's justification? I just don't know where you're getting this idea, much less what you really mean by it.

[bookgirl32]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

Just like TULIP, this is some pretty tough stuff. This is not fast food theology. .

Do you realize how condescending this sounds? I'm honestly asking you this, not trying to put you down. You are implying that EENS knows less than you about his own faith, and that he might not be able to handle it. You may not mean that, but you are implying it.

[E.E.N.S.]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...ration_en.html

JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church

Just some quick tidbits in the declaration you mentioned:

Originally Posted by Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

12.The justified live by faith that comes from the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17) and is active through love (Gal 5:6), the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22f). But since the justified are assailed from within and without by powers and desires (Rom 8:35-39; Gal 5:16-21) and fall into sin (1 Jn 1:8,10), they must constantly hear God's promises anew, confess their sins (1 Jn 1:9), participate in Christ's body and blood, and be exhorted to live righteously in accord with the will of God. That is why the Apostle says to the justified: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil 2:12f). But the good news remains: "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:1), and in whom Christ lives (Gal 2:20). Christ's "act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all" (Rom 5:18).

Originally Posted by Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

30.Catholics hold that the grace of Jesus Christ imparted in baptism takes away all that is sin "in the proper sense" and that is "worthy of damnation" (Rom 8:1).[16] There does, however, remain in the person an inclination (concupiscence) which comes from sin and presses toward sin. Since, according to Catholic conviction, human sins always involve a personal element and since this element is lacking in this inclination, Catholics do not see this inclination as sin in an authentic sense. They do not thereby deny that this inclination does not correspond to God's original design for humanity and that it is objectively in contradiction to God and remains one's enemy in lifelong struggle. Grateful for deliverance by Christ, they underscore that this inclination in contradiction to God does not merit the punishment of eternal death[17] and does not separate the justified person from God. But when individuals voluntarily separate themselves from God, it is not enough to return to observing the commandments, for they must receive pardon and peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation through the word of forgiveness imparted to them in virtue of God's reconciling work in Christ. [See Sources for section 4.4].

Also note:

Originally Posted by Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

5. The Significance and Scope of the Consensus Reached

Originally Posted by Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

40.The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics. In light of this consensus the remaining differences of language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification described in paras. 18 to 39 are acceptable. Therefore the Lutheran and the Catholic explications of justification are in their difference open to one another and do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.

41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.

42.Nothing is thereby taken away from the seriousness of the condemnations related to the doctrine of justification. Some were not simply pointless. They remain for us "salutary warnings" to which we must attend in our teaching and practice.[21]

[fhansen]

If the Protestant and Catholic definitions of sanctification are essentially the same-that a believer, cooperating with Gods grace, grows in knowledge and love of God as well as love for neighbor, with acts of various kinds naturally and necessarily resulting from this disposition, then Protestants should know that Catholics are at least are not depending on works of the law to play a role in their salvation, but rather works born of love. And if so, then the bone of contention should be solely whether or not sanctification plays a role in salvation, rather than anything to do with whether or not Catholics are trying to earn their way to heaven by attempting to fulfill the law on their own efforts.

But, if sanctification does play a role in being justified for salvation, then this is a very significant difference. Either man must be truly just in order to be qualified for entrance into heaven or he need be only imputedly so.

[2nd Adam]

Originally Posted by E.E.N.S.

I have read it before, more than once I might add. You are still trying to imply (it would seem) that the Pope somehow teaches a different view than the Catholic Church, and I am telling you that you are mistaken.

Why can't Catholics simply be happy that many Evangelicals rejoice in what the Pope taught on the doctrine of justification by faith? Do you prefer that we didn't like his teaching?

[2nd Adam]

Originally Posted by fhansen

If the Protestant and Catholic definitions of sanctification are essentially the same-that a believer, cooperating with Gods grace, grows in knowledge and love of God as well as love for neighbor, with acts of various kinds naturally and necessarily resulting from this disposition, then Protestants should know that Catholics are at least are not depending on works of the law to play a role in their salvation, but rather works born of love. And if so, then the bone of contention should be solely whether or not sanctification plays a role in salvation, rather than anything to do with whether or not Catholics are trying to earn their way to heaven by attempting to fulfill the law on their own efforts.

But, if sanctification does play a role in being justified for salvation, then this is a very significant difference. Either man must be truly just in order to be qualified for entrance into heaven or he need be only imputedly so.

That's a very good assessment of the issue at hand. Sanctification does not play a role in our justification before God, because we are declared just upon conversion, based on the righteousness of Christ alone. How can you add to perfection found in Christ? I think we have to understand that historic Protestants do not believe all who profess Christ actually possess Christ's righteousness through imputation. A growing affection and love for God are assurance that a sinner has been truly been justified. Since a Catholics justification is not based on the alien righteousness of Christ alone, it appears to many Protestants that Catholic believe in a works righteousness gospel, based on your obedience or cooperation with God, to be made just. That's a tough way to go, since the Christian life is quite the struggle. Christ is sufficient for us because His perfect life and sacrificial death merited our justification on our behalf; therefore, we are able to enter the sabbath rest found in Christ alone.

[E.E.N.S.]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

Why can't Catholics simply be happy that many Evangelicals rejoice in what the Pope taught on the doctrine of justification by faith? Do you prefer that we didn't like his teaching?

Do you seriously think anyone here will buy this what you are trying to sell here? You have been trying to imply that the Pope is teaching something different than what the Catholic Church teaches, in this thread and others, and myself and others have been calling you out on this over and over. If you were simply trying to state that you rejoice in the fact that there is some common ground between Catholics and Lutherans on the doctrine of justification then you could have said so in a very clear and concise manner, but you did not.

You are employing deceptive tactics that are un-befitting a Christian. You should really try from here on out to say what you mean, and mean what you say, and to do so in an un-ambiguous way. The obfuscation needs to stop.

[2nd Adam]

Originally Posted by E.E.N.S.

Do you seriously think anyone here will buy this what you are trying to sell here? You have been trying to imply that the Pope is teaching something different than what the Catholic Church teaches, in this thread and others, and myself and others have been calling you out on this over and over. If you were simply trying to state that you rejoice in the fact that there is some common ground between Catholics and Lutherans on the doctrine of justification then you could have said so in a very clear and concise manner, but you did not.

You are employing deceptive tactics that are un-befitting a Christian. You should really try from here on out to say what you mean, and mean what you say, and to do so in an un-ambiguous way. The obfuscation needs to stop.

Why do you guys make this so personal? Here's an article from Christianity Today basically rejoicing on Pope Benedict's teaching on justification. I know it is a Protestant perspective, but my belief is the same as many other Evangelicals.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/.../103-51.0.html