One mortal sin sends you to hell forever?

[fultonfish]

Originally Posted by TheAdvocate

Ouch. Jack will be in hell eternally right alongside with unrepentant murderers, rapists, adulterers, thiefs (perhaps Hitler, Stalin, Judas). Seems a bit disproportionate, no?

Jack knew FROM MINUTE ONE what the rules are.

He knew.

And yet he decided that a golf game was more important.

What more can one say.

Maybe the proper question would be that Jack will be in hell eternally right alongside all the other unrepentant people who decided to ignore God.

[theinquisitive]

Originally Posted by diggerdomer

Yes. I wasn't saying anything about hell, only about the comment regarding no one on earth being able to tell you if anyone went to heaven.

Exactly!!! Just as NO ONE can presume to say who goes to Hell (nor to Heaven).
That in my book,would be "playing God".......
Be as good a person as you can,try your best not to,willingly,commit an injustice against your neighbour,follow the Commandment given to us by Christ (while He was here on earth), "Love thy neighbour as thy self, but God above all things" That seems to sum it up... It includes all the 10 Commandments.or not.?
If I do those things,with a true heart,well, it is the best I can do..
I have read the Bible,but nowhere can I find a reference to "must go to Church on Sunday/Saturday,or I commit a Mortal Sin (go to Hell/Purgatory)". If some one can cite a chapter I would be thankfull.......
"When two or more come together in my name, I will be with you" (We are told to do this as often as we can).. no mention of having to be "at a certain time,in a certain place"
So I "miss Mass on Sunday/Saturday" There is nothing that says I can not pray, in private,before ,"I go out with friends for a meal" To say other wise would be against the teaching of Christ.. The idea that a good and caring Father (God) would punish such a lapse is unthinkable.......... Idiotic.......
Christ also said "see I will make all things new,a new Heaven and a new Earth" why would he make a new *earth* if no one would be there to "enjoy it?"
I believe that very few will be in Heaven, the majority of the "fathful" will return (after jugdment day) to God's "new Earth" where all things will be "heavenly"
Christ said (even to His Apostles), "where I go you can not follow" .......
Of course we are all certain that Christ returned to Heaven......... So where were they to go??
He did NOT say "for a while you will be in Purgatory" Or "you will go to hell" ... so,if even Christ could not forsee this,how on earth can any one else presume to do so??
Illogical!!

[diggerdomer]

Originally Posted by theinquisitive

Exactly!!! Just as NO ONE can presume to say who goes to Hell (nor to Heaven).
That in my book,would be "playing God"......

No, as I said before, the Church teaches that canonized saints are in Heaven. The Church is not presuming here, but teaching.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by theinquisitive

Exactly!!! Just as NO ONE can presume to say who goes to Hell (nor to Heaven).
That in my book,would be "playing God".......Be as good a person as you can,try your best not to,willingly,commit an injustice against your neighbour,follow the Commandment given to us by Christ (while He was here on earth), "Love thy neighbour as thy self, but God above all things" That seems to sum it up... It includes all the 10 Commandments.or not.?
If I do those things,with a true heart,well, it is the best I can do..
I have read the Bible,but nowhere can I find a reference to "must go to Church on Sunday/Saturday,or I commit a Mortal Sin (go to Hell/Purgatory)". If some one can cite a chapter I would be thankfull.......
"When two or more come together in my name, I will be with you" (We are told to do this as often as we can).. no mention of having to be "at a certain time,in a certain place"
So I "miss Mass on Sunday/Saturday" There is nothing that says I can not pray, in private,before ,"I go out with friends for a meal" To say other wise would be against the teaching of Christ.. The idea that a good and caring Father (God) would punish such a lapse is unthinkable.......... Idiotic.......
Christ also said "see I will make all things new,a new Heaven and a new Earth" why would he make a new *earth* if no one would be there to "enjoy it?"
I believe that very few will be in Heaven, the majority of the "fathful" will return (after jugdment day) to God's "new Earth" where all things will be "heavenly"
Christ said (even to His Apostles), "where I go you can not follow" .......
Of course we are all certain that Christ returned to Heaven......... So where were they to go??
He did NOT say "for a while you will be in Purgatory" Or "you will go to hell" ... so,if even Christ could not forsee this,how on earth can any one else presume to do so??
Illogical!!

That is NOT true.
For example, we CAN say that the canonised saints are in heaven.
We CAN say that Mary and the Apostles are in Heaven.

We can also say that anyone who dies in an unrepented state of mortal sin goes to Hell and that anyone who dies in a state of grace is saved (straight to Heaven or Purgatory first). This is a Church teaching. If a Catholic does not believe this then they are committing heresy.

It seems to me your profile is wrong and that you are actually a Protestant as you are mistaken in your beliefs. Have you actually read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which will answer the questions you asked??

[theinquisitive]

Originally Posted by fultonfish

Jack knew FROM MINUTE ONE what the rules are.

He knew.

And yet he decided that a golf game was more important.

What more can one say.

Maybe the proper question would be that Jack will be in hell eternally right alongside all the other unrepentant people who decided to ignore God.

>>"Jack knew FROM MINUTE ONE what the rules are" <<

What rules??. Where can I find (in the Bible) that "rule" ??
Man made rules do not aply....
The first Christains met regularily,yes ,but it is not stated on which day.
Acording to Hebrew tradition,it could prob. have been on Saturday, as most early Christians still held the "Sabat" as sacred,beside the fact,that it would have been dangerous to congregate in "nummbers" I don't think that there was a "rule", apart from that they "congregated" mostly in private houses,so what can speak against a "private" prayer before "going out" or parcitipating in any other activity,either on Sunday,
Saturday...... or, in fact any other day....... ??? sooo trivial,sooo unimportant to a loving Father,who,as we all agree, wishes only the best for us.....
Christ said "I am come,not to give you more /or other Commandments /*rules*,from my Father" But to give Just one.... see my previous comment!!! ...
"Love thy neighbour....... It is realy so simple...
Why do we spend so much time second guessing Christ's promise to all Mankind.......... Redemption!!! and forgivness for our sins,for those willing to accept......??

[Tantum ergo]

What I find particularly tiresome among the nay-sayers and the 'where is that in the Bible' crowd is that they seem to think that Christianity is nothing more than whatever "bible quotes" their pastor has come up with to 'justify' his personal interpretation of his (or her) denomination's cherry picking of the gospel. . .and thus, they post as though unless Catholics can put in the same type of 'cherry picking' and one-liners to support 'their' teaching, that it just 'don't exist.'

Fact is, the 'teaching' regarding the worship of God as we Christians know it today is solidly Scriptural. It is found everywhere from Genesis to Revelation --because Catholic Christian teaching involves knowing Scripture as it pertains to all the rest of Scripture as WELL AS Oral Tradition given through the guidance of the Paraclete to the Church established by Jesus Christ.

2000 years' worth of knowledge of Scripture, and of Oral Sacred Tradition, and of 2000 years' worth of practice, along with 2000 years' worth of teachers expounding on all of this, makes Catholic Christian teaching more than the 'infotainment' or 'sound byte' Christianity that attempts to whittle down Christ's teachings into T-shirt slogans.

[theinquisitive]

Originally Posted by thistle

That is NOT true.
For example, we CAN say that the canonised saints are in heaven.
We straight to Heaven or Purgatory first

We can also say that anyone who dies in an unrepented state of mortal sin goes to Hell and that anyone who dies in a state of grace is saved (straight to Heaven or Purgatory first). This is a Church teaching. If a Catholic does not believe this then they are committing heresy.

It seems to me your profile is wrong and that you are actually a Protestant as you are mistaken in your beliefs. Have you actually read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which will answer the questions you asked??

Well,I must you are right there, "we CAN say that the canonised saints are in heaven.
We straight to Heaven or Purgatory first" ...but it don't make it so!!

Firstly.. I find NO mention in the Bible (in which we all /Catholics and Protestants are bound by FATH trust to ./believe ) of "Purgatory".
Nor that Christ aurthorized any one to *canonise* "Saints",or,to with certainity,to say who would,under which surcomstances, go "straight to Heaven or Purgatory first" or to Hell........
Secondly.. I have never professed to being Catholic!!
Thirdly.. it is not for YOU to say that I am " misstaken in my beliefs"
(It can of course be YOUR opinion).
Fourthly... I was educated in a Catholic boarding school,where,I had EVERY opertunity to read the Catholic Catechism. (DAILY)
Fifthly.. I took Early Christainity as my main subject in my GCE's ..
Which, helped me to understand the conditions under which the first Christains were subjected to in their atempt to worship Christ,preach His word, to listen to the teachings of the VERY FIRST followers of Christ..Who I expect knew best (first hand experience))
Lastly... "heresy" what a silly word!!! More suited to the very "dark ages" of which I had hoped we were long rid of.
The Catholic Church has left such things behind it, time that we do the same...
Hell? a "Märchen" to scare childen and the *not sure*...

It can not be "heresy" to repeat Christ's own words.. Or?
Pope Benedikt himself said " Fides et Ratio" ergo,without reason there can be no FAITH.
We all have been given, by God, the "gift" of reason.......... which again,enables us to use another gift from God, "free will"/choice........we should,and can use both!! It leads us to Faith,and not away from it...
God loves us ALL, so we have been taught,,, why then would He have made such a place as the Hell which you would have us believe exists?
Hell is (Hades ) the end, of life ,of hope but also of every other feeling.. including pain.
Redemption is,life ever lasting,in harmony with ones self,with God and with all others.
That is what Christ preached.........
PS.The HELL I describe is a terrible state,for we have no hope of every being re-united with our loved ones,no hope of an everlasting life in peace,without pain,illness,stress and many other troubles we have to endure in our present times.
Not a great thought

[thistle]

Originally Posted by theinquisitive

Well,I must you are right there, "we CAN say that the canonised saints are in heaven.
We straight to Heaven or Purgatory first" ...but it don't make it so!!

Firstly.. I find NO mention in the Bible (in which we all /Catholics and Protestants are bound by FATH trust to ./believe ) of "Purgatory".
Nor that Christ aurthorized any one to *canonise* "Saints",or,to with certainity,to say who would,under which surcomstances, go "straight to Heaven or Purgatory first" or to Hell........
Secondly.. I have never professed to being Catholic!!
Thirdly.. it is not for YOU to say that I am " misstaken in my beliefs"
(It can of course be YOUR opinion).
Fourthly... I was educated in a Catholic boarding school,where,I had EVERY opertunity to read the Catholic Catechism. (DAILY)
Fifthly.. I took Early Christainity as my main subject in my GCE's ..
Which, helped me to understand the conditions under which the first Christains were subjected to in their atempt to worship Christ,preach His word, to listen to the teachings of the VERY FIRST followers of Christ..Who I expect knew best (first hand experience))
Lastly... "heresy" what a silly word!!! More suited to the very "dark ages" of which I had hoped we were long rid of.
The Catholic Church has left such things behind it, time that we do the same...
Hell? a "Märchen" to scare childen and the *not sure*...

It can not be "heresy" to repeat Christ's own words.. Or?
Pope Benedikt himself said " Fides et Ratio" ergo,without reason there can be no FAITH.
We all have been given, by God, the "gift" of reason.......... which again,enables us to use another gift from God, "free will"/choice........we should,and can use both!! It leads us to Faith,and not away from it...
God loves us ALL, so we have been taught,,, why then would He have made such a place as the Hell which you would have us believe exists?
Hell is (Hades ) the end, of life ,of hope but also of every other feeling.. including pain.
Redemption is,life ever lasting,in harmony with ones self,with God and with all others.
That is what Christ preached.........
PS.The HELL I describe is a terrible state,for we have no hope of every being re-united with our loved ones,no hope of an everlasting life in peace,without pain,illness,stress and many other troubles we have to endure in our present times.
Not a great thought

Your profile states you are Catholic. If that is not correct then at least have the honesty and intergrity to state what you really are.

[teachccd]

Originally Posted by theinquisitive

Well,I must you are right there, "we CAN say that the canonised saints are in heaven.
We straight to Heaven or Purgatory first" ...but it don't make it so!!

Firstly.. I find NO mention in the Bible (in which we all /Catholics and Protestants are bound by FATH trust to ./believe ) of "Purgatory".
Nor that Christ aurthorized any one to *canonise* "Saints",or,to with certainity,to say who would,under which surcomstances, go "straight to Heaven or Purgatory first" or to Hell........
Secondly.. I have never professed to being Catholic!!
Thirdly.. it is not for YOU to say that I am " misstaken in my beliefs"
(It can of course be YOUR opinion).
Fourthly... I was educated in a Catholic boarding school,where,I had EVERY opertunity to read the Catholic Catechism. (DAILY)
Fifthly.. I took Early Christainity as my main subject in my GCE's ..
Which, helped me to understand the conditions under which the first Christains were subjected to in their atempt to worship Christ,preach His word, to listen to the teachings of the VERY FIRST followers of Christ..Who I expect knew best (first hand experience))
Lastly... "heresy" what a silly word!!! More suited to the very "dark ages" of which I had hoped we were long rid of.
The Catholic Church has left such things behind it, time that we do the same...
Hell? a "Märchen" to scare childen and the *not sure*...

It can not be "heresy" to repeat Christ's own words.. Or?
Pope Benedikt himself said " Fides et Ratio" ergo,without reason there can be no FAITH.
We all have been given, by God, the "gift" of reason.......... which again,enables us to use another gift from God, "free will"/choice........we should,and can use both!! It leads us to Faith,and not away from it...
God loves us ALL, so we have been taught,,, why then would He have made such a place as the Hell which you would have us believe exists?
Hell is (Hades ) the end, of life ,of hope but also of every other feeling.. including pain.
Redemption is,life ever lasting,in harmony with ones self,with God and with all others.
That is what Christ preached.........
PS.The HELL I describe is a terrible state,for we have no hope of every being re-united with our loved ones,no hope of an everlasting life in peace,without pain,illness,stress and many other troubles we have to endure in our present times.
Not a great thought

Ragardless of what your profile states, with such dissention to Church teachings it becomes apparent that you are not a practicing Catholic. As far as Purgatory is concerned it is mentioned in Scripture. You won't find the word in Scripture no more than you find the word "bible" or "trinity" in Scripture but I'm guessing that you believe in those things. Yes, the same Church that acknowledged which 27 books belonged in the New Testament also defined the Trinity, titled the books of the New Testament, called it a bible and defined purgatory. It never ceases to amaze me how so many will accept the Church's authority on many matters and clearly reject some.

Everytime you pick up your bible you are subjecting yourself to the authority of the Church who, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, acknowledged and interprets the Word of God. Now you can stomp your feet and disagree but Church histrory cannot disappear with your inability to accept it................teachccd

[theinquisitive]

Dear thistle, in answer to you latest comment (to me)

>>Your profile states you are Catholic. If that is not correct then at least have the honesty and intergrity to state what you really are.<<

Well,I do not know how that hapend I "ticked" no boxes........... If I did it was unintentional.
My Religion= my business........
Too many claim to be Catholic/Protestant/Anglican,because their parents had them (at a tender age) baptized in that Faith,it does not make anyone a Catholic,just because of that fact.
Catholic=Christian is the way I would describe myself.
Seek and you will find. No better place to find God's intentions for us than in the Bible,or not?
And pleeeez no reference to "sola scriptura".
As stated in the said Bilble (the word of God) this is the message to you all, nothing should be added nothing should be left out,nor changed.....
> A message from His Holyness Pius XII <
" In Our ardent desire that a more widespread knowledge and love of the Holy Writ be promoted among the laity,We warmly welcome this new edition of a Family Bible prepaired for english speaking Catholics.............
(further)"We extend to all an earnest invitation to partake of this heavenly food to avail themselvs of this gift from God,which is an inexhaustible treasure where those who search will find what they so eagerly seek,words of truth and comfort,of strenth and encouragement,of solace and peace".
From the Vatican
December 27.1955
Westminster Edition 1958.
Of course the Pope could have said, "just read the Catechism,there you will find all"
Genesis 3: 19
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth,out of which thou was taken"
= Hell, the eternal grave........... no burning fire, no ever lasting torment?
No Purgatory? Just Death for all eternity,sounds bad enough to me.

[theinquisitive]

>>It never ceases to amaze me how so many will accept the Church's authority on many matters and clearly reject some.<<
Perhaps it is because you possibily have given up your "fides et ratio"
I have not.......
I may not be,what YOU deem,to be a "practicing Catholic". But then,I am one of very many "Catholics" who do not go to Church every Sunday,do not pray the Rosary daily,but of one thing I am sure,and that is that God alone can look into my heart,in HIS judgement/mercy I trust........ as should we all
Amen and God bless you.

[teachccd]

Originally Posted by theinquisitive

>>It never ceases to amaze me how so many will accept the Church's authority on many matters and clearly reject some.<<
Perhaps it is because you possibily have given up your "fides et ratio"
I have not.......
I may not be,what YOU deem,to be a "practicing Catholic". But then,I am one of very many "Catholics" who do not go to Church every Sunday,do not pray the Rosary daily,but of one thing I am sure,and that is that God alone can look into my heart,in HIS judgement/mercy I trust........ as should we all
Amen and God bless you.

It is precisely because of faith AND reason that I cannot refute the teachings of a Church that acknowledged my sacred Scriptures, maintained them thoughout the centuries and lives them out in the sacraments. It becomes a total matter of faith AND reason that I know that missing Mass on Sunday is an assention of the will not to do as Christ commands when He instituted the Eucharist.

God can look into your heart but He also gave us ten commandments not ten suggestions. Yes, He will look into each of our hearts and judge as to why we either keep or reject those commands. Many reject the Church that Christ founded and, as you say, in His mercy God will be the just judge as to why.

Amen and God bless you................teachccd

[DanteAlighieri]

Originally Posted by theinquisitive

>>"Jack knew FROM MINUTE ONE what the rules are" <<

What rules??. Where can I find (in the Bible) that "rule" ??
Man made rules do not aply....
The first Christains met regularily,yes ,but it is not stated on which day.
Acording to Hebrew tradition,it could prob. have been on Saturday, as most early Christians still held the "Sabat" as sacred,beside the fact,that it would have been dangerous to congregate in "nummbers" I don't think that there was a "rule", apart from that they "congregated" mostly in private houses,so what can speak against a "private" prayer before "going out" or parcitipating in any other activity,either on Sunday,
Saturday...... or, in fact any other day....... ??? sooo trivial,sooo unimportant to a loving Father,who,as we all agree, wishes only the best for us.....
Christ said "I am come,not to give you more /or other Commandments /*rules*,from my Father" But to give Just one.... see my previous comment!!! ...
"Love thy neighbour....... It is realy so simple...
Why do we spend so much time second guessing Christ's promise to all Mankind.......... Redemption!!! and forgivness for our sins,for those willing to accept......??

The Church was granted the authority to teach in Christ's name and the authority to "bind and loose". If something has to be "in the Bible" for you to believe it, this is.

Thus, your argument about Sabat and all that, even if you are historically correct, is meaningless. The Church has the authority given by the hand of God Himself to require us to go to Mass however many times a week as she sees fit.

So, yes, "Jack" knows the "rules". So should you, since you call yourself "The Inquisitive" and a Catholic.

Peace,
Dante

[DanteAlighieri]

This thread is getting wildly off topic.

Peace,
Dante

[Tantum ergo]

That will happen when people attempt to put their 'personal' interpretations of Church teaching above, or in lieu of, the true teachings and then argue that theirs are 'better', and this 'proves' that they're right.

Or they think they can fudge the words 'mortal', 'sin', 'hell', and 'forever' enough to make the Church teaching, in their eyes anyway, meaningless. If nobody can commit a 'mortal' sin, then it doesn't matter that the Church teaches that a mortal sin, unrepented, at death will result in hell--because hey, nobody can actually commit that kind of sin! or if hell isn't forever, or isn't the 'hell' that we claim, then the idea of going to hell forever is again meaningless. . .

One thing for sure though. God does know the hearts and minds. It is just going to come as a shock to anybody presumptuous enough to think that God "will judge me right even though I don't follow His Church yet call myself Catholic and claim to be in good standing with Him" that they will be judged exactly the way that they expect those who disagree with them to be judged. . .you see, they think that God will 'punish' the 'hardnosed' but let them (such 'loving' souls) off scot free. . .