# Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? #

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by joe370

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You are wasting your breath with Socrates, I'm afraid. Christianity is nothing more than an exercise in slow motion urgency, to him...He has helped me realize my shortcomings though: must spend less time here and more time at church; thank you Soc for your unwitting advice.....

Too much time on his hands. He could have used it to read the Bible more often.

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by twb1621

Actually, this refers to the coming of Christ of which He vowed the Church would not fall but be guided by the Holy Spirit until His return. This refers to the coming of false prophets and being cautious of those who claim to come in His name. Jesus will be as obvious as lightening from the east being seen in the west.

Notice the previous verses;
4 4 Jesus said to them in reply, "See that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Messiah,' and they will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars 5 and reports of wars; see that you are not alarmed, for these things must happen, but it will not yet be the end. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be famines and earthquakes from place to place. 8 6 All these are the beginning of the labor pains. 9 7 Then they will hand you over to persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of my name. 10 And then many will be led into sin; they will betray and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; 12 and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, 8 and then the end will come.

You might be right, Tom. But Ed's attack drives home the point of which Catholics rarely speak: The love of pedophiles within the Church has grown cold. These offenders do not appear to be the kind that perseveres. Rather, they seem the kind that become perverse.

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by paul c

Sure, it sounds like people sin. What has it got to do with the entire Catholic church apostacizing? Where does it say the church will fail? Instead, Jesus said it would withstand the gates of hell and that he would be with the church unitl the end of the age.

But that's what bothers me, PC. Rather than resist those who are hell bound, the Catholic Church appears to embrace them. It gives me pause when i consider embracing Her.

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by paul c

Furthermore, it is a warning against heretics, who think they know more about Salvation than the Church Christ founded to spread the faith to the ends of the Earth. Those that think that Faith alone is a substitute for love in the economy of salvation.

If that is true, then how is pedophilia love in the economy of salvation? It seems to me that sexually molesting innocent young boys is more a cause of moral bankruptcy. And it's a great concern for me.

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by MonFrere

How convenient for Evangelical Ed to leave out DISOBEDIENT TO PARENTS -- Priests don't marry!! To say this verse is specific to some club of celibates is crazy. Read the history of ANY SOCIETY in decline. These same traits ALWAYS pop up.

Besides can you say TED HAGGART can you say MIKE SWAGGART -- can you quote documents that demonstrate the problem of pedophilia is a NATIONAL PROBLEM and not one specific group of celibate men. Do you want to see a group of rebellious kids that's disobedient to parents -- I've been around ministers kids and believe me they are not paragons of virtue. Do you want to see divorce? Look at evangelicals. We live in a fallen society. We're all guilty. That's a Mickey Mouse Argument. Clean up your own house Evangelical Ed. We've begun cleaning up ours.

MonFrere

I'm not so sure Paul's point was that if you commit only some of these sins and not all of them then it's OK with Christ.

[MariaG]

Originally Posted by evangelical_ed

I respectfully disagree, MG. Prayer is communication with one in heaven. Mary is in heaven. So communicating with her is prayer.

You can disagree all you want, but you are ignoring the historic meaning of the word to pray, which has narrowed in the last couple hundred years. In the last couple hundred years to pray mean communication with God alone. (Or one is not a Christian)

But all you have to do is look at old writings that contain phrases like "I pray thee husband would consider...." The wife is not praying to God, nor her husband but beseeching her husband to consider. Clearly, praying has not always meant beseeching those in heaven alone.

God Bless,
Maria

And I can't believe this thread is still going!!!

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by fhansen

Jimmy Swaggart, maybe? Or my old AOG Pastor who split up his new church?

Yes, but Swaggart suffered the consequences for his sin. After the fact, he was permanently removed from ministry. I personally know two other men--some of the best evangelical teachers i'd ever had the privilege of sitting under, removed from ministry permanently for having committed only one sexual act with a consulting adult of the opposite sex outside of marriage. The people of their own congregations, and even their wives, forgave them, but the Church government whose authority they were under removed them from ministry. But i don't see that happening in the Catholic Church. They homosexual offenders are not removed from ministry. They are merely moved to a different parish that is dangerously unaware of their past transgressions. And the good as well as the bad are moved from parish to parish, so no one knows who has committed such a heinous act and who has not. Such tolerance of sin seems contrary to the purpose of Christ.

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by utunumsint

Hang on a minute. Our Catholic Carl is Rocky. So lets see if Soc will let his sock puppet have a comeback. There have been several suggestions put forth already.

Soc is far to honest to let Eddy win by throwing a couple of sucker punches like those.

God bless,
Ut

Thanks for sticking up for me, Ut. Let Joe go, if he wants. And if he changes his mind and returns, i'll still say, "Joe, i love you man!"

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by MonFrere

Also, Soc has been here since June 2004. That's a LONG TIME to play a practical joke.

IMO -- regardless -- this venue for apologetics is a nice diversion, and actually kinda fun.

any Sammie left ............

MonFrere

Socrates and Jesus both seem to me the kind of guys who got a kick out of shocking people!



But behind the humor, they were both serious about their purpose--living according to truth, i think.

[Michael Francis]

Way over the 1,000 post limit and closed.