Justification - Catholics and Protestants

[guanophore]

Originally Posted by tweetymom

you must know

I had to learn it the hard way, believe me. I used to tell people I was Catholic, because I was baptized Catholic and went to Catechism as a child. However, as I grew up, I grew increasingly distant from what the Church believes and teaches. I finally went the same route you did, and sojourned among my Protestant brethren for many decades. By the time I studied and prayed my way back through the doors of St. Peter, I did not even realize how far my thinking and beliefs had drifted from what is Catholic.

Originally Posted by tweetymom

You are the one who continually argues. I have no arguement with how you believe.

Sure you do, Tweety! I have posted that I believe it is disingenuous to call oneself Catholic when one rejects the doctrine of the Church. You disagree with me.

It is ok to disagree on these ideas. That is what the forum is about. We are comparing and contrasting differences.

[guanophore]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

[center]Since the doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel, everyone needs to post on this particular apologetics thread created by a Catholic Christian brother. Here it is:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=394299

If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, you have to post on the thread link above!

Gosh, 2nd Adam, have you been rising in authority around here fast! First I read this morning that I am not qualified to post on a thread, and now I read taht I "need to post" on a different thread.

Further, the implication is, if I don't post on that thread, then maybe I really don't "love the Lord". Amazing.

Did you get tired of this thread? Did you decide you no longer wish to talk about justification?

[2nd Adam]

Originally Posted by guanophore

Gosh, 2nd Adam, have you been rising in authority around here fast! First I read this morning that I am not qualified to post on a thread, and now I read taht I "need to post" on a different thread.

Further, the implication is, if I don't post on that thread, then maybe I really don't "love the Lord". Amazing.

Did you get tired of this thread? Did you decide you no longer wish to talk about justification?

Of course not. The doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel. How can someone not want to discuss the gospel, especially if we love the Lord Jesus Christ?

I would like to participate on three threads.

1. gospel thread in apologetics

2. justication thread right here.

3. TULIP in apologetics.

[guanophore]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

Of course not. The doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel. How can someone not want to discuss the gospel, especially if we love the Lord Jesus Christ?

I would like to participate on three threads.

1. gospel thread in apologetics

2. justication thread right here.

3. TULIP in apologetics.

I would like that too. I have to say I was disappointed to learn that I am not qualified to participate in TULIP thread.

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by guanophore

Gosh, 2nd Adam, have you been rising in authority around here fast! First I read this morning that I am not qualified to post on a thread, and now I read taht I "need to post" on a different thread.

Further, the implication is, if I don't post on that thread, then maybe I really don't "love the Lord". Amazing.

Did you get tired of this thread? Did you decide you no longer wish to talk about justification?

Gosh, I wonder if insignificant little old me is going to be allowed to toss in a couple of cents worth once in a while. you know nothing really ,really big like something deep,deep and profound like. Just the plain old truth as I have been taught it???Carlan

[guanophore]

Originally Posted by Carlan

Gosh, I wonder if insignificant little old me is going to be allowed to toss in a couple of cents worth once in a while. you know nothing really ,really big like something deep,deep and profound like. Just the plain old truth as I have been taught it???Carlan

Nope, I dont' think so, Carlan! If you don't weigh in on predestination, then you lose your right to participate in anything TULIP, sounds like to me.

[gmcbroom]

I thought a pedestrian was a walking person? Am I mistaken?

[gmcbroom]

TULIPS are plants....or two lips. What are the two lips doing?

[PJM]

Dear friends,

I fear what we have here in our discussion of Salvation by Faith Alone or in the 2000-year Old Catholic teaching, of Faith as proven and practiced through works is a failure to communicate.

We have on countless OP Threads replied to non-Catholic Protestant Theology that Faith is the only requirement to Salvation. Meaning Christ has already done all that is necessary. It’s interesting that the position held, seems to be that it is “not only Christ Sacrifice on the Cross, but belief in the same, that “assures one’s salvation.” Friend, “Faith” is a “Work!”

We have provided Bible Quotes that make clear your position is factually anti-biblical. The common response is not to acknowledge receipt of this information, and to gloss over that it even exists.

One wonders if there might be some intellectual dishonesty in this tactic? If you hold the single truth, then you should NOT be afraid to be challenged on the validity of that truth to see if it withstands the evidence, wisdom and logic of the current time? There seems little opportunity, and willingness to discover truth.

Pope Benedict shared this profound thought (paraphrased): There can’t be your truth and my truth, or there would be NO truth, which is THE TRUTH.

Can we agree that we cannot know the mind of God? Isaiah 55: 8-9

We can get a glimpse of the working of God’s Mind and Heart, by understanding God’s Nature, which is and has to be Good. Another truth we can know, is that whatever attributes God possesses, God must possess them to a much higher degree than we can. God is Perfect, and possesses every Good attribute to it’s Highest Perfection.

What are some of these attributes that God possesses to their Perfection? God is All Good, Wise, Knowing, Loving, Kind, Powerful, Merciful, Generous and of course All Just (fair). God being God, the perfection of goodness, is and must be in each and every one of these manifestations of His Love.

We Christians are quick to acknowledge the attributes of God that we are comfortable with, but naturally tend to, at least, a little, to gloss over the fact that Yahweh God in the Old Testament was feared, more than loved.

The Hebrew relationship with Yahweh-God was a fearful one. God was quick to exercise His right for Just- Vengeance. (Deut. 32:35, Rom. 12: 19, Heb. 10:30.) But time and time again He relented, showed His Compassion and Merciful Love, and gave them another opportunity. But first, He punished them with Just retribution.

Fulton Scheen, points out in his book: ”The Imitation of Christ” that from God calling to Adam in the garden; “Where are you?” (Gen. 3:9), to Saving Noah, to Abram, changing his name to Abraham, and making him the Father of His chosen people, to Moses, the Prophets, Judges, and Kings like David and Solomon, right through to His Apostles “follow Me and I will make you fishers of men.” (Mt. 4:19.) To the present day, Christ calls us, Mt, 16: 24 “Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

” It is the very issue of God Justice, that is the stumbling block to the truth about Salvation and Justification.

Webster’s Dictionary definitions… Proves that “Redemption and Salvation” have different meanings.

Redemption, “to redeem -the act, process, or an instance of redeeming “

Our Blessed Lord’s Sacrificial Death the Cross (dare I use this word?) “Only” makes Heaven possible, and reverses the most notable effect of the Sin of Adam and Eve, access to Heaven is now possible.

Salvation: ““1 a: deliverance from the power and effects of sin b: the agent or means that effects salvation 3 a: preservation from destruction or failure b: deliverance from danger or difficulty”

Both are Necessary!

At this juncture it seems prudent to ask ourselves why, in all of God’s awesome Creations, are God Himself, The Angels and humanity blessed and gifted with “intellects and free-wills?” Surely God had something in mind, in bestowing these gifts upon and within us!

Zecharich 8:1, Exodus 34:14 and Psalm 79:5 explain God’s Jealously. “How long, O LORD? Wilt thou be angry forever? Will thy jealous wrath burn like fire?

God’s desire to have a permanent and Personal Relationship with His Created Humanity, which flows from unfathomable Love, that permits Divine Justice to INSIST, and require, that we Love Him in return, not only for His many gifts, but also for God’s many Sacrifices.

2nd. Cor. 6:1 Working together with him, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. For he says, "At the acceptable time I have listened to you, and helped you on the day of salvation." Now is the acceptable time; Now is the day of salvation, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: through great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, labors, hunger; by purity, knowledge, forbearance, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love, truthful speech, and the power of God; in honor and dishonor, in ill repute and good repute. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;as dying, and behold we live; as punished, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

2 Tim. 4: 1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead. Preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching”

[2nd Adam]

Originally Posted by PJM

Dear friends,

I fear what we have here in our discussion of Salvation by Faith Alone or in the 2000-year Old Catholic teaching, of Faith as proven and practiced through works is a failure to communicate....
”

Can everyone please post their answer to the "What is the gospel"question on the Apologetics thread? It was started by a Catholic brother. My short answer to the question of "what is the gospel" is.... God is the gospel!

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=394299

The justification debate has a much bigger purpose which is the gospel.

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam

Can everyone please post their answer to the "What is the gospel"question on the Apologetics thread? It was started by a Catholic brother. My short answer to the question of "what is the gospel" is.... God is the gospel!

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=394299

The justification debate has a much bigger purpose which is the gospel.

Do you believe that God has already chosen a person for heaven or hell before they are born?

If so, do you believe that this choice is based on his foreknowledge of their cooperation with his grace?

[2nd Adam]

Originally Posted by CHESTERTONRULES

Do you believe that God has already chosen a person for heaven or hell before they are born?

If so, do you believe that this choice is based on his foreknowledge of their cooperation with his grace?

These are very good questions. Do you mind posting this on the TULIP thread in the apologetics section. We can cover your question in greater detail. Maybe as a teaser, when you look at the word foreknew in Scripture... does it mean what you think it means? Please read these verses in the surrounding context and theme that it is written. I will say that God does not choose us based on his foreknowledge of us choosing him. I think God knows that nobody will choose Him apart from changing their rebellious nature.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 11:2
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

[PJM]

Originally Posted by JonNC
I have heard Catholics here contradict this. Could that be an over-reaction to sola fide, as I think, in some ways, the term sola fide was a reaction to semi-pelagian thought in Luther's time?

Jon's RESPONSE

I do think it is an over reaction. Indeed, the semi-Pelagian thought and practices were a major factor in the reformation. I think this had been going on for centuries. When one reads the call for participants in the Crusades, and what sounds like papal promises of heaven for oneself, and one's loved ones for going to battle, it seems that the faithful were misled long before Luther came on the scene, or Tetzel decided to let greed reign over faith.

Friends I must disagree with both of you.

The Pope and the Church have the RIGHT and the Authority to aothorize "Plenary Indulgences" for conditions specified. Thus His Holiness could grant the same for the conditions of going to war, and risking ones life for Christ.

The Protestant position of "Faith -Alone", if not the brother of plagianism is nevertheless closely related to it. Faith "alone" denies the necessary role of GRACE in ones personal salvation. And in numerous discussions on this topic, that does clearly seem to be the position of many.

Love and prayers,

Pat

[2nd Adam]

Originally Posted by PJM

Friends I must disagree with both of you.

The Pope and the Church have the RIGHT and the Authority to aothorize "Plenary Indulgences" for conditions specified. Thus His Holiness could grant the same for the conditions of going to war, and risking ones life for Christ.

The Protestant position of "Faith -Alone", if not the brother of plagianism is nevertheless closely related to it. Faith "alone" denies the necessary role of GRACE in ones personal salvation. And in numerous discussions on this topic, that does clearly seem to be the position of many.

Love and prayers,

Pat

Historic Protestant Reformed Theology is the opposite from Pelagian thought. It was actually influenced by Augustine who opposed Pelagius. The Catholic Faith is closer to Pelagian thought than historic Protestantism. Please join us on the predestination TULIP thread to discuss issues like Arminianism, Pelgaism, Augustine, and semi-pelagism. I find that the Catholic Faith is close to my Protestant Arminian brothers on this issues. Most Protestants consider our dear Catholic siblings to be semi-pelagius in thought.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=393580

[guanophore]

Originally Posted by PJM

Friends I must disagree with both of you.

The Pope and the Church have the RIGHT and the Authority to aothorize "Plenary Indulgences" for conditions specified. Thus His Holiness could grant the same for the conditions of going to war, and risking ones life for Christ.

It is not the authority of the Pope here that is the problem, but the content of the indulgence. In order for an indulgence to be effective, a person must be in a state of grace. Most of those who went to the Crusades were not. They went for material and political reasons, and were lured by promises that they could not obtain in their state of spiritual depravity.