Do not deny sincerity of worship.

[firstmode]

Chapter 13.-Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.

But let us see if this people is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, "Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger." You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, "Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them." And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his fight hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, "Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh, for he is my first-born son." And Jacob said, "I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed." Ye see on whom he laid [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? "Because thou hast believed, it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision."

[agiosotheos]

Originally Posted by Byzantine_Wolf

but if we're going to say Christians and Muslims worship the same God, then we are deceiving ourselves.

I was the first person in this thread to explicitly deny that we worship the same God as Muslims or even Jews, so it should be clear that that was not the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make is that Muslims are closer to us in our fundamental beliefs than any other existent non-Christian religious group (I pointed out later that Baha'is are in the same boat).

Originally Posted by Byzantine_Wolf

True, many people forget in the writings of the New Testament there is a different between ethnic Jews and religious Jews.

Well, I think Christianity is the religious successor to ancient Judaism. Paul even refers to Christians as the "true Jews". What we call Jews today are essentially people who rejected the God that they for centuries had claimed to serve.

So, I'm not contradicting what you're saying, but adding another layer of what it could mean to be religiously Jewish.

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Originally Posted by agiosotheos

I was the first person in this thread to explicitly deny that we worship the same God as Muslims or even Jews, so it should be clear that that was not the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to make is that Muslims are closer to us in our fundamental beliefs than any other existent non-Christian religious group (I pointed out later that Baha'is are in the same boat).




Well, I think Christianity is the religious successor to ancient Judaism. Paul even refers to Christians as the "true Jews". What we call Jews today are essentially people who rejected the God that they for centuries had claimed to serve.

So, I'm not contradicting what you're saying, but adding another layer of what it could mean to be religiously Jewish.

I think we are, as they say, "violently in agreement"

[agiosotheos]

Nice. I had a feeling.